EP 127: Invisible Layers — Identity, Leadership & The Weight Women Carry with Nicole Johnston

In this episode of Thriving in Intersectionality, Dr. Lola Adeyemo sits down with Nicole Johnston for a thoughtful conversation on her intersections and key insights on invisible labor, workplace expectations, leadership, and the hidden experiences that shape how women navigate work and life.

Nicole shares how growing up with two educator parents—working at opposite ends of the educational spectrum—shaped her understanding of difference, support, and human potential early in life. She also reflects on navigating the workplace with hearing loss in one ear, and how invisible identities often influence professional experiences in ways people may never fully see.

Together, Lola and Nicole explore the concept of the “mental load” and the invisible work expectations that women disproportionately carry at home and at work. From emotional labor and non-promotable tasks to organizational bias and sponsorship, this conversation unpacks how high-performing professionals can become exhausted even as they are overlooked for leadership opportunities.

Nicole also shares insights from her book, Slightly Taboo Topics: Things Women Should Talk About But Don’t, and offers practical strategies for recognizing hidden labor, setting boundaries, and building stronger sponsorship relationships within organizations.

In This Episode, We Discuss:

• Growing up between different educational and social realities
• Invisible identities and navigating hearing loss in professional spaces
• Why “mental load” creates invisible exhaustion for women
• The difference between promotable and non-promotable work
• How invisible expectations shape burnout and leadership perception
• Why women are often over-mentored but under-sponsored
• The importance of sponsorship in career advancement
• Recognizing bias in workplace systems and leadership structures
• Practical ways to push back against hidden labor expectations
• Building healthier, more inclusive leadership cultures

About the Guest

Nicole Johnston is a former global sales and marketing executive with more than 30 years of experience leading within major organizations across international markets. Today, she works in executive coaching and leadership development, helping professionals navigate leadership, visibility, communication, and organizational growth. She is also the author of Taboo Topics: Things Women Should Talk About But Don’t.

About the Podcast

Thriving in Intersectionality explores how identity, lived experience, and leadership intersect in today’s workplace. Through reflective conversations and personal storytelling, Dr. Lola Adeyemo highlights the experiences of professionals navigating layered identities across corporate, entrepreneurial, and leadership spaces.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:02

Hello and welcome to the Thriving in Intersectionality Podcast. A podcast that explores the real experiences of professionals navigating the workplace with layered belief identities. I'm your host, Dr. Lola Ateemo, the CEO of EQI Mindset and founder of the nonprofit Immigrants Incorporate, Inc. I'm also an author, speaker, and a workplace inclusion strategist. I work with organizations to build communities of belonging through strategy, storytelling, and systems change. This podcast amplifies the voices of professionals from intersectional backgrounds, immigrants, ethnic minorities, first-gen professionals, veterans, working parents, individuals with disabilities, and so many more. Through solo reflections and guest conversations, we'll uncover the eating challenges, celebrate the wins, and offer insights to help you thrive, not just survive in the corporate world. Because in today's global workforce, belonging isn't just a bonus, it's the catalyst for real growth and impact. Let's dive in. Hello, welcome back to another episode of the Thriving in Intersectionality Podcast. A podcast where I love love bringing guests with diverse backgrounds and would explore their journey, their career journey through the intersectionality lens. A big word that I love to also say a little bit about before we dive in. What is intersectionality? Intersectionality is a framework that recognizes how multiple aspects of our identity, such as our gender, race, ethnicity, immigration status, class, age, lived experience, visible, invisible identities, have shaped who we are and what we do. How all of these things overlap and interact and create very unique experiences for each one of us that we can't understand by looking at it individually, uh, but it is observed through the lens of the person who carries all those layers. So I love uh expanding on what our word is and using it as a framework and a background for these podcasts because it allows us to explore leadership, not just as performance, but as something that is shaped by our identity, our experience, and a lot of um our lived visible and invisible experiences. So thank you everyone for listening and uh thank you for getting to know my guests through their lens. And I guess I should thank my guests too, because um, you know, we can find out a lot about people's work uh online, but I love to get to the behind the scenes, the journey of how you got here, what are some of the things that have shaped your leadership journey? So, Nicole, I'm I'm looking forward to learning more about you. And um, yes, a little bit about Nicole. My guest today is Nicole Johnston, she's a former global sales and marketing executives with more than 30 years of experience inside some major organizations. Uh, before she turned her attention to leading um uh executive coaching and leadership uh practice, which we'll get to mention a little bit here. And and so I'm I'm very sure, Nicole, that you have a lot of stories to share with us. But before we get to those stories, um, I'll love to learn more about you uh yourself first. So thank you for joining me today. How are you doing? I am doing great. Thank you for having me on. Yeah, I'm excited to dive in. You've done some amazing work and also published a book that I think is very relevant to this conversation. We'll talk about it a little bit, but first let's get to meet you beyond the bio, beyond the title, Nicole. So when you think about the word intersectionality, um, what aspects of your life and experience do you think has most shaped your journey and the and the work you do today?

SPEAKER_00 4:32

I think probably one of the biggest things is my background as far as both of my parents were teachers. And they were teachers basically on the opposite ends of the spectrum. My dad taught all AP classes, you know, things that were kids who were, you know, super smart, going a lot of places, all of that. And my mom's classes were all for learning disabled, behaviorally disabled kids. And so, you know, again, some really smart people, but definitely had some challenges that they faced. And so growing up, I got to see a wide difference in how education came about for people who had different skills and different challenges. And so just being that teacher's kid and seeing that difference in scope made me very aware early on that not everybody was the same, that maybe some person needs more resources over here, but that doesn't make them any less than someone who is rocking it over there. And it's just understanding that different people need different things to thrive based off of what is best for them. So that's probably the first place that I saw it. Um, the second place is I am deaf in one ear, which of course you would not know by looking at me. And so I spent a lot of my life making sure I was positioned correctly, making sure I could hear what was going on. There's a lot of times at business meetings I would fight with the left-handed people about where we were sitting at dinner, and they'd say, I'm left-handed, and I'd say, Well, I'm right-eared. And they would look at me and say, That seems to win. I'm like, sorry, you can switch hands. I can't switch ears. And so it was also something that helped me become aware of not just the overt diversity, whether you're talking gender, race, you know, those kinds of things, but so much more that makes up people that if you allow yourself to be able to see more about people, that you can be a much better leader, partner, guide, everything in that.

SPEAKER_02 6:35

Wow, you touched on so many things in like two minutes. Yes. Um, I love I love having this conversation. I hope I love hosting this space because again, this is a lot of my guests, I don't have that much details about them. And so I don't even know what people are going to share through the layers. And um, as we are talking about your parents, I was imagining just even some of the conversations that you are absorbing that they don't know because if they are talking about if both of them are talking about their work, they're talking about walls that collide within the education system. Um, so thank you so much for sharing that. I I think the the the earring one is also an interesting one. I used to have a co-worker that I didn't realize he um was earing disabled for the longest time, and I worked with him, and he literally like had to tell me years later, like, oh, I have to read leaps. Yeah, which is why he couldn't attend some of the at that time we're using Skype calls. So I was kind of chatting with him about hey, you know, I don't see you come for joining some of those calls. Like, we have Skype option available if you can't walk down to the other building, and he's like, Oh no, I need to read lips. And he said it so casually, and I had to like pause and ask him again, like, wait, what? And he's like, Oh no, I I was born, I use hearing aid, I can hear a little bit, but I I read lips, and I it it's just just a lot of things that made so much sense after he said that. Yeah, and he he sent me on a whole journey around um uh accommodations at my workplace at that time because now I knew somebody who worked with me and I had missed a lot of the signs of um how he could perform better. So yeah, I could go on and on about that part.

SPEAKER_00 8:25

Hearing loss is interesting. Once you become aware of it and you know the signs to look for, it's very easy to pick up on people who have it. But if you're unaware of the signs, then it's very easy to be like, what do you mean you have a hearing loss? You don't sound like it, you you know, all those kinds of things. And thank you to University of Iowa Wendell Johnson's speech and hearing clinic. I don't sound like it because I spent a lot of time learning how to speak when I was a little kid. And so it's there's there's so many things out there in life that if you're aware of it, you you'll see it all around you. But if you're not, then you're not. And so it's it's something that I try to remind myself of often that there's so many invisible and hidden things there that if we are more kind to ourselves on it, we will be better off.

SPEAKER_02 9:13

Yes. When kind to ourselves, uh, more aware of other people, right? Like instead of being reactive, just pausing and and listening and maybe learning more about somebody else. So thank you so much for sharing that. All right. Um, do you want anything else as far as layers, um, identity, intersectionality that you think have shaped you?

SPEAKER_00 9:34

I would say the other thing would probably be the fact that I am married and don't have kids, is a different position than a lot of people. And um being a parent is something that you know a lot of people want, other people don't, other people can't. And because of that, there's a lot of not intentionally thoughtless questions, but thoughtless questions that do get directed at you that you have to decide how you want to answer and engage. And so it's something that um, like me personally, I wasn't able to have kids, so that's why I don't have them. And so when someone I don't know out of the blue is like, well, why don't you have kids? Do I tell them about all the tries that I had, all the money I spent, or I do I just say, you know, I really like my cats, you know? And so it's again what you don't know and what you can't see on a person, you can't put your frame of reference on them because you don't know if it'll apply. And so that would probably be the other one that is one I've had to deal with a few times throughout my life.

SPEAKER_02 10:43

Yeah, that is another interesting layer because um, yeah, I um I have I have kids, but I have friends that add challenges, and one of the things that um a friend that shared with me was telling people, oh, I don't have kids, and then people saying, Oh, so lucky you almost like, oh, you made the choice. Like people don't know how to react because they don't know what the backstory is, and so sometimes making comments like lucky you. Well, some people it's not luck, it was you know, it wasn't their choice, but they've made peace with it, and then some people is their choice, right? But how much of that details to your point? How much details are you gonna give to somebody that just asked that question? Uh, that doesn't really know you.

SPEAKER_00 11:27

There's one of the chapters I write about in my book is about pregnancy, and I make it a very overt point to say, you're giving birth naturally, amazing. You're gonna have a C-section, phenomenal. You want an epidural? Great. You don't want kids and want to be the best aunt ever, fabulous. You want to adopt 12 kids, amazing. Whatever is your path, I support you. As long as you're healthy and the kids are healthy, nothing else. That's what it is. But unfortunately, too many people want to apply a paradigm to a woman that says she has to do X or Y in order to be considered complete, successful, whatever. And that's not true. It is your journey, and sometimes there's bumps and bruises, and then there's acceptance, and there's other times that there's not. But you have to own your journey the best you can and recognize that it is it's that way for a reason.

SPEAKER_02 12:18

It's that way for a reason, yeah. And and and the the freedom of choice and and being able to say, you know, this is my decision too. I mean, not everybody has that freedom of choice sometimes, but I um I like to say, yeah, if you, you know, if you are close enough to somebody to be able to ask questions, this is what you choose to do, this is that's okay, you know, as long as you are okay with what you've chosen to do, um, that makes a huge difference. Thank you for sharing that, and thank you for, I can already tell we're gonna dive into your book a little bit and talk about it because I can already tell the content is sort of loaded and multi-layered around the same topics that um I love to talk about. Okay, so let's talk about your career journey a little bit. Um sales and marketing in corporate. I feel like uh there's a heavy professional career path. And so uh, can you could you walk us through your professional journey a little bit, maybe some of the transitions along the way and choices from education, college, up on to what you're doing now?

SPEAKER_00 13:18

Sure. So I am from Iowa originally and I went to the University of Iowa. And when I was there, I studied, um, I got a BBA in marketing, I got a French minor, I was one class short of a Spanish minor, and then I also got the international business certificate. So I had been setting myself up early to be able to do something of a broader scope and scale. And then um, more than I was in college, I actually did internships with Proctor and Gamble, and I started with them full-time after college. And I did a series of roles for them, gradually, you know, increasing scope, increasing scale, increasing importance, all of that throughout. With um the last about four and a half years I worked for them, I was over in Geneva, Switzerland. And so there I had responsibility from Russia down to South Africa, and that was 107 countries that were completely wildly different, and it was fascinating working on them. And then my final role there was uh working on a global role. And um so I'd been at PG for about 20 years, and I knew that I wanted to shift because at that point in time, all the business leaders within PG came from marketing. And I at that point was in sales, and so I knew if I wanted to try to become a business leader, I was gonna have to take a step back in marketing to then try to go forward. And I decided I wanted to try something else, I wanted to see what else was out there, and so I thought it would be fun to go work on chocolate, and so I made the career pivot to go from Procter Gamble to Hershey. And um, I worked at Hershey for not that long. There was, they went through a whole bunch of restructures in the time I was there. And when I went there, it was to lead a global business. And through the restructuring, they took highlight and emphasis off their global business, I guess I would say. And so um I left then to go work for Kimberly Clark. And for each of these career pivots, I have always gone by the rule of do what's the scariest. Meaning when I was offered two different opportunities, if one felt safer than the other, I would always go for the one that wasn't as safe because I knew then I would learn, I would grow personally and professionally. I would learn more about myself, I would learn more about humanity, everything. And through that, it led me to make some fairly bold career choices. Now, I have moved 18 times since I graduated from college. I do not recommend that for people. It's not fun, it is not delightful, it's a skill set I don't wish on my worst enemy, but I've got it. But because I was willing to put myself forward to do different things and make choices, there they were willing to move me overseas because I showed I was willing to move within the US. And so I was able to do these other things because of that willingness. Again, way too many times, not recommended. Thumbs down, do not do. But because I chose what scared me, I showed flexibility, and I was able to work across cultures, I was able to continue to do more and more things. And pretty much every household in North America has products I've worked on in them. So it's also great to be able to work on such amazing brands that people know and love. And so I had been doing that for a while. And when I was the head of sales at my last role, I just I was just not loving the job anymore. And I just remember sitting through a meeting where we were talking yet again about somebody who saying they were going to take this many displays, this many floor stands, and they didn't, and we had to go back and say, you said you were gonna take a thousand, you only took 900, why didn't you? And on and on and on. And I remember thinking in that meeting that, man, I wish I could just do something for the people and get away from the sales, which when you're the head of sales, that's not the best thing. So that's the point where I stepped back and I um got certified as a coach and I started writing my book and started working on the things that I could do to help people and not have to worry about floor stands and displays and that kind of stuff anymore. And um yeah, so that was kind of my journey that brought me to where I was.

SPEAKER_02 17:46

Wow, that's interesting. Um, because I was going to, before we talk about the shift from the sales marketing, I was going to ask, did you, when you went into college, did you know you were interested in sales marketing kind of roles?

SPEAKER_00 18:02

I knew I was interested in business and I wasn't sure what aspect of business I wanted to do. And I was always really good at math, so I considered finance, and I considered I knew I was not going to do accounting because that to me was just nails on the chalkboard. But I was wasn't sure what area of business and it was between finance and um sales and marketing, and it just ended up that I really enjoyed the sales and marketing classes the most, and so that's where I went.

SPEAKER_02 18:29

Okay, yeah, I love it. I I I love to dig into the the why of the decisions because um I know we have our earlier professionals who are also thinking about, and I get asked that question. I feel like the answers that we give can only like I can talk about my experience in my context. Things are very different now. So, you know, I still get people asking me, Oh, you finished with a biochemistry degree, or is there value in a biochemistry degree? I'm like, I finished in a biochemistry degree in 2006. Yeah, we're in a different world right now. So if you're gonna assess uh a degree, getting a degree in a certain space, that there's a lot more to the conversation than just um the degree and the monetary value. So um thank you for sharing that. All right, so let's talk a little bit about your your work, your current work, and the perspective you bring. First, I I want to start with your book. Very interesting topic. Do you want to talk about that? I see it behind you. Oh, you have one, right? Yeah, as well.

SPEAKER_00 19:29

Okay, it's picking out right here as well. But sorry, taboo topics, things women should talk about, but don't. This book is written a little bit differently than a lot of business books because I I'm omnivorous when it comes to books. I will read business books, I'll read biographies, I'll read the latest vampire romance. It doesn't matter, I will read it. I love to read. And the challenge I have with so many business books is they do a fantastic job of outlining the problem. And then you're like, so now what? And so you've got this very clear problem identified, and you have no clue what to do with it. So instead, this book has 24 chapters, and each chapter is its own topic, it's its own vignette. And I go into it, not only trying to identify the problem, but then giving you very actionable things you can do to address it. Because I just don't like the books where you walk away going, all right, now I got to find another book to solve that book. And so instead, I wanted to make it super actionable. And so I talk about things like I want, there's a chapter in here on menstruation. There's a chapter on incontinence, there's a chapter on personal investment for women, chapter on the mental load, a chap chapter on sexism. There's lots of different topics in here, but it is all designed to build awareness and then give super easy next steps that you can take to help address it in your life.

SPEAKER_02 20:54

Yeah. Okay, thank you. Well, for those listening, I will have the link. I'll have the book linked in the show notes and also on our substack deep dive um version so that you can check it out. Uh, but Nicole, I wanted to, there's one of the things that I I don't know if that's a chapter in your book, but we talk about um invisible work expectations. Yeah, um, I talk about it from the immigrant perspective as somebody that that um was raised and educated in a different country and then moved to the US. Um, but you also talk about it from women's perspective. And so I wanted to ask about that. Um, what what are your thoughts around how invisible work expectations shape our leadership and maybe burnout? We talk about burnout a lot as well.

SPEAKER_00 21:38

The way I discussed in the book is I call it the mental load. And the mental load is all of the work that needs to happen for work and life to flow. So this is necessary work. It is the planning of the meetings, ordering the lunch, knowing who's allergic to what, you know, that kind of stuff. It's necessary. And it almost all disproportionately falls on women. And so if you think about an average full-time job, you work roughly 2,000 hours in a year. For moms, the mental load is another 520 hours at home. And for women as a whole, it's another 200 hours. So women are doing another 720 hours of work that is often not recognized, it is certainly not compensated, and it is making women exhausted. And so when you talk about this at work, I call it non-promotable labor because it is work that will not get you anywhere. And it takes time away from your ability to demonstrate strategic thinking, show how you can bring people together and really, you know, energize a group. It takes away from your ability to demonstrate your leadership because promotions are not based on your ability to complete tasks. Promotions are based on the perception of your leadership potential. So if all you're doing is putting your head down and getting tasks done, that's what is going to be assumed of you is that you can just put your head down and get tasks done. It is not going to be assumed that you want to become the VP, the CEO, the whatever. It's not going to be assumed that you're looking for a bigger role. It's not going to be assumed that you want more responsibility. It's going to be assumed that you like to put your head down, put get the task done, and move on. And so that combined with taking on the work that won't get you promoted, just more solidifies that perception of you being someone who can just churn out work, not the thinker, the leader, the strategist, the person that people look toward for answers. And so part of that comes with building your skills to be able to say no to things. And so part of it can be like when someone says to you, hey, I need you to do blank, blank, blank. Okay, how does this fall in my list of priorities? Oh, come on, you can fit it in. No, I actually can't. Help me understand where this falls in my list of priorities. And it's pushing back to say, I'm not going to absorb your work. The amount of times you hear, oh, you're just so much better at making the deck, ordering the lunch, whatever, than I am. Can you please just help? Well, you know, if you don't get practice at it, you're never going to get better. So I think you need to try this time. But after you've done around, come back and I'll look at it.

SPEAKER_01 24:53

Right.

SPEAKER_00 24:54

It's having the ability to push back on that, again, necessary work, but it's not leadership work. And so you have to have confidence in your skills and what you're bringing so that you can push back against it. Now, again, part of the challenge is most women don't even recognize the work that they're doing to be able to recognize the load it's putting on them. And so something that I challenge women to do is I want you to for a week, just a week. Anytime, anytime you do something for anyone other than yourself, write it down. You make your kids' dental appointment, you pick up your husband's suit at the cleaners, you do a PowerPoint for someone at work, you go get someone coffee, just whatever, write it down. Then look at that list at the end of the week and be like, oh, that's why I'm so tired. Because you're going to see this immense amount of labor that you're doing that is overlooked and not credited and not paid. So then you need to start making choices with your partner, it'll be having a conversation of, hey, I am doing all of this. I know you're doing some stuff, but I need help. Here's the stuff I need you to do. Now, if they take that on, you need to communicate to them that they take all of it on. So if they're going to take care of the kids' music lessons, they need to make sure the kids have the sheet music, that they know how to get to the lessons on time, that you have the check or the you know, the Venmo or whatever for the teacher, that you are getting them organized for the concerts, that you have booked everything that they need to for any other show that they're doing, that they have the right dress for the concert, all of those details. It's not just taking the kid to the lesson. You need to literally take everything associated with that task away. And that's the conversation that you have to have at home. At work, it looks like pushing back on those things. Hey, can you order lunch for us? You know what? I've done it the last couple times. I think it's someone else can take the turn this time. Hey, I really need your help on this because I you do it so much better than I do. You know what? I don't have capacity this week or next week, but I can meet with you in three weeks. Yeah, the amount of tasks that disappear when you do that is massive. But learn how to recognize the work, push back kindly, but be so incredibly selfish with your time.

SPEAKER_02 27:37

And I love I love the way you so immediately you started asking that question, and you talked about, you know, write everything you do for someone. I love how in my mind I didn't even think of oh, the things you do for the kids, right? Because to me, I'm thinking, oh, you know, for the kids, those are the kids. That's not when you said to do for someone, I was already thinking the professional things I do for my friends, right? But I was like, and then you started breaking it down. I'm like, that's it. There is so much that comes with even something as simple as for work, like order lunch. It's not just order lunch, it's picking the venue, is looking at the best location, the best time, is taking a poll on whenever what works for everybody, is getting the calendar invite house, is looking for who has allergies. There's a lot of work that goes into what looks like one task.

SPEAKER_01 28:24

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 28:24

And and if we were to sit down and start to itemize everything, this also helps us to understand what we enjoy. Because as you were thinking about it, I I do think some people there are certain things that they enjoy. Oh, yeah. I've talked to women that ended up having a career change because of that. Like this part that stresses everybody out, that is what I love doing and I love taking it on.

SPEAKER_01 28:50

But that's the important one, right?

SPEAKER_02 28:53

And that's not what I do as my full-time. I want to make this my full-time because this is where I want to spend my time. So, again, it's it's just worth assessing everything through our own lens and and preference.

SPEAKER_00 29:05

Yeah. So there's a story I tell in the book about this. Uh, when I moved to a new company, one of the women in the group came up to me and said, What month do you want? And I'm like, I for what? She said, Oh, we celebrate everybody's birthdays and everybody picks a month. And I said, Okay, so we got a lot more than 12 people. She's like, Yeah, we just have 12 people and we kind of rotate through. I'm like, okay, can I see the list before I pick? And she's like, sure. So I look at the list, all 12 are women. And I said, Is this just for the women's birthdays? No, we all do it. I said, So why is there not a single man on this list? I don't know. And I said, So when men are taking equal representation on this, then I will take a month. And she said, Well, I can't say that. I'm like, that's okay, I can. And so at the next department meeting, I brought up, I said, Hey, I love the birthday celebrations that are happening here. I think that's a wonderful way to, you know, grow spirit and make everybody happy. And who doesn't love cake? I mean, come on. I said, but when I looked at the list, I noticed something that was concerning, and that only women were going to the effort to celebrate this, yet everybody benefits. So I think we need to make a change on this. Who of the men would like to volunteer to take some months? And there was a lot of sheepish, oh yeah, looking on. And men did step up, but one man came up and said, I don't want to be a part of this. I said, Okay. Well, I'm not gonna do it. Okay. Well, this should matter. I said, it doesn't. I'm not going to do the work for you on this, and that means you're not going to partake with it with everyone else. You are choosing to not be a part of it, and that's okay.

SPEAKER_02 30:51

Right.

SPEAKER_00 30:52

But, but, and you could tell he wanted to fight me on it. I'm like, no, man. You want to you want to opt out? That's on you. The rest of us are gonna celebrate and everything. But like one guy came up to me and he said, I'm I've I've been giving money to someone because I don't know how to bake. And I said, That's fine, you can buy a cake. And he's like, Oh, yeah, I can, can't I? I'm like, absolutely. But it was just to me, it was such a good example of the things that are allowed to propagate until somebody shines light on it. And once a light shine shone on it, people are gonna a little bit uncomfortable.

SPEAKER_02 31:28

And then we get used to the yeah, it's we get comfortable in how it was being done, and then honestly, there might have been people that felt excluded that really wanted to do it that were men. Yeah, exactly. Right, but we then gave them a choice, and they sort of in their head thought, oh, you know, it's the women thing, and the women wanted to do it.

SPEAKER_00 31:48

Right. Because you will you will build a story to match what you perceive, whether or not the perception is accurate, you will build a story to match that.

SPEAKER_02 31:57

Yeah, absolutely. Thank you so much for sharing that. Um, and as we begin to wrap up, um, I think the the final part, I just like to pull it together in terms of when you think of your intersections that you shared at the beginning, um, when you think of you know those categories of yourself that shaped who you are and the work um that you are doing today, coaching executives and leaders, how do you think your own lived experience uh continue to shape your leadership today?

SPEAKER_00 32:28

I think it makes it easier for me to see past the obvious diversity, meaning if I am coaching a group and I've got white men in there, I don't assume that's all they are. I assume that there's other layers in there, whether it is religion, disability, taking care of a parent. You don't know what is there past the front. And so, because of that, as a coach, I tend not to stop at what might be the first obvious layer. Instead, I really try to ask questions that go deeper that brings more of the truth of that person forward than what you can just see.

SPEAKER_02 33:07

Yeah, I love that. And so maybe maybe two final advice for two groups, individuals, and then for organizations. So for on the individual level, for anyone that is maybe within the system or kind of in that career phase right now, is there any final thoughts to them, women, uh, different genders?

SPEAKER_00 33:30

I would say the most important thing for women specifically is get a sponsor. And a lot of women have mentors and some have coaches, and they don't really know how to leverage the different relationships. So let me simplify by using some prepositions. A coach talks with you. So if you come to me and say, hey, I'm working on this project, I'm having a challenge, I'm, you know, this person is really hitting my buttons, you know. A coach will talk with you to figure out how you can move it forward, what potential solutions are. And it's just a safe space working together on something. A mentor talks to you. So, for example, when I first started working with Procter and Gamble, I had a business dinner. Teachers don't have business dinners. I had no clue what to do. My parents didn't know what to do. So I called my mentor and I'm like, what's a business dinner? What do I wear? You know, I had no idea. And so she was like, wear this, don't do this, have one glass of wine, da-da-da-da. I'm like, perfect, thank you. She talked to me, she told me what to do based off of her experience. Perfect. A sponsor talks for you. This is a relationship that you build through experience. It might have been a former boss, someone in your reporting line, someone you worked on with on a project, someone who's aware of your work because of maybe working in a DEI group, whatever, but it's someone who has experience and exposure with your work. You then need to maintain that relationship. You need to feed and water it and create a connection because that person is in the room where the discussions happen, and that person can be a voice for you. Women are horrifically under-sponsored. They're over-mentored and undersponsored. And if you don't have a sponsor as you're listening to this, your first step is to think about someone that you've had a connection with in your past of your work that you really liked them, you thought they were great to be around, go ask them to have coffee. Go ask them to have lunch and just say, you know what? I was thinking about when we worked together five years ago and how you were just so great at team meetings. You made everybody feel good. We all came out of them excited and energized. And I just realized that was a great skill. And I would love to learn more how you did that. There's not going to be a human in the world who says, Don't ever talk to me again. They're going to say, Oh, really? Okay, let's talk. And so, but by feeding and watering that relationship, you continue to show benefit to them. They're getting to be able to give their expertise to you. And more importantly, when you're not around, they're a voice in your corner. Get a sponsor.

SPEAKER_02 36:23

Yeah, absolutely. I I love that. And I think, um, yeah, you you you said it exactly right. It's somebody who speaks for you, and I think that's the difference that people miss because the person has to know you. You know, we're used to the whole mentorship where I want to have somebody to be my mentor. That's great. A mentor is talking to you when you are together, but what you want to build that relationship is to is that person to talk for you when you are not there. So, um, uh, but they have to know you to do that, right? And sometimes they know you even more than you know yourself. The way they will talk about you, you'll be like, Oh wow, that really sums me up so much. Kind of know me, don't you? Yeah, yeah. I I I have a couple of people in my life like that, and I am so grateful for them because sometimes even just random notes from them just talking about, hey, I see you doing this, I see you do this. Yes, a relationship I think you like, it makes a huge difference. Huge, absolutely massive. Thank you for bringing that up. And I think the the second piece of the advice that I was also going to ask you, because again, you've been within some global organizations, you've walked across different locations um geographically, um, literally, and I would want to uh maybe for organizations and leaders that are listening, what needs to change so people, diverse, layered, multi-layered individuals uh can grow without invisible exhaustion.

SPEAKER_00 37:54

I think it starts with being aware of your biases, and it is so comfortable to go to people who look like you or might have the background you have or those kinds of things. And it's uncomfortable to go to someone who might be a little more difficult in a conversation, or ah, they just don't get along as well as other people, but they're brilliant. And for an organization, I want the leaders of organizations to fundamentally be selfish. And here's why: because being selfish means you want to do the absolute best thing for yourself to succeed. And if you're a leader in the organization, the best thing you can do is fostering the best talent. It's not gonna be going to what's easy, it's not gonna be picking somebody who looks like you in the mirror. Being selfish means getting the best people and moving them ahead. And that means you have to confront your biases to do that.

SPEAKER_02 39:00

I love it. Thank you, Nicole. Thank you for your expertise, thank you for your thought leadership. Um, packaged in that book and the work that you continue to do. I have a final question that I love to wrap up with. If you were to share a meal or a snack or a fruit, something edible with your co-workers, what would you pick and why did you pick it?

SPEAKER_00 39:21

It would be a dessert of some kind because my um my let me see, she would have been my great-great-grandmother um owned a bakery and she started it as a box lunch for construction workers because her husband had gotten killed. And so, because of that, she had no way to feed her daughters, and so she started a bakery box lunch and had a whole fleet of trucks and everything. And this is back at the turn of the 19th century in Omaha, and so that side, my mom's side of the family comes down a very solid line of cooks, and on my dad's side of the family, you know, grew up on the farm, and my grandmother was an amazing, amazing cook as well. So I come from a family of very, very good food, and so baking is a big part of my love language. I love to bake for people, so it would probably be something. I mean, could be Christmas cookies at Christmas, I make a killer chocolate chip cookie. I don't know, it would depend, but it would be some kind of baking.

SPEAKER_02 40:23

Okay, can I walk with you? I feel like I'll satisfy my sugar cravings.

unknown 40:28

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 40:29

Well, my husband doesn't really like to bake goods if people are like, What? And he does it. So he loves my banana bread, but that's about it. But I would I would bake stuff and bring it to work because he didn't really want it. So that's what I would say.

SPEAKER_02 40:41

I am not a baked, I think mine is just because my mom was a caterer as well, but I'm just a very I don't have the patience for baking. I I love cooking, but I love stovetop cooking. Like when I'm cooking, I'll cook multiple things at once. Like I cook the price. Exactly. That's what I was gonna say. It was like I love to eat it, but I don't love to make it because I don't just ate mixing and doing that, and then putting it in, and then waiting, and then bringing it up. I was like, come on, I just want to do the step fry, and while the step fry is cooking, I'm chopping up these, and then I'm chopping up these, and then all five things are done at the same time. Yes, I'm on my feet for two hours, I'm I'm good. Fair enough. Um, but yeah, I love that. Thank you so much, Nicole, uh, for being a guest today. Thank you for sharing and um looking forward to learning more about your work and continuing to follow you.

SPEAKER_00 41:36

Thank you so much. I really appreciate having you on. This was a great conversation.

SPEAKER_02 41:40

All right. Well, if you're listening, please rate, review wherever you get your podcast from. And don't forget to share this episode with someone that needs to be part of this conversation. And if that's you, uh please reach out. Thank you. Thank you for being part of today's conversation on thriving in intersectionality. If you're an HR or DEI leader and you need employer resource group or business resource group resources, let's connect and LinkedIn and help organizations build inclusive cultures through inclusive workplace communities, strategy, and storytelling. Immigrants and first-gen professionals, join our free community at www.immigrantsincorporate.org for career support, networking and resources in community with peers who understand your journey. Tag our podcast page on LinkedIn or connect with me directly to continue the conversation. Please don't forget to rate and review to help others discover these discussions. Keep thriving in your intersections. Your story matters. I'm Dr. Lola Adeyemo, and this has been Thriving in Intersectionality Podcast.