EP 131: Capability Is Not Enough — Visibility, Identity & Opportunity with Vas Ramakrishnan

In this episode of Thriving in Intersectionality, Dr. Lola Adeyemo sits down with entrepreneur, immigration strategist, technologist, and human rights advocate Vas Ramakrishnan for a conversation about identity, visibility, opportunity, and navigating systems that were not always designed with everyone in mind.

The conversation begins with an exploration of intersectionality through Vas's own lived experience. As an immigrant, entrepreneur, technologist, advocate, and neurodivergent professional, Vas shares how his layered identities have shaped the way he approaches leadership, innovation, and service.

Born in Madurai, India, Vas reflects on his journey from engineering and technology to entrepreneurship, nonprofit leadership, and immigration advocacy. Along the way, he discusses the challenges of adapting to new environments, building credibility, and creating opportunities while navigating unfamiliar systems.

One theme emerges throughout the conversation:

Capability alone is not always enough.

Many talented professionals believe hard work will naturally lead to recognition and opportunity. Yet success often requires understanding systems, building visibility, telling your story effectively, and learning how to position your contributions so they can be recognized.

Together, Dr. Lola and Vas explore what it means to build a future across borders, navigate uncertainty, and create pathways for others to thrive.

This conversation is not simply about immigration.

It is about identity, belonging, visibility, and the human desire to contribute, grow, and be recognized for our potential.

In This Episode, We Discuss:

• How immigrant identity shapes leadership and perspective

• Navigating multiple identities across cultures and professional environments

• Neurodivergence, adaptability, and personal growth

• Growing up in India and building a life and career in the United States

• Entrepreneurship, innovation, and purpose-driven work

• Why visibility matters alongside competence

• The hidden challenges many immigrant professionals face

• Understanding systems and creating opportunities within them

• The connection between advocacy, technology, and human dignity

• Practical advice for professionals navigating career growth and uncertainty

About the Guest

Vasanthan (Vas) Ramakrishnan is an entrepreneur, immigration consultant, technologist, and human rights advocate. He is the founder of Ascend HSI Advisory Partners, an immigration advisory firm focused on employment-based immigration pathways. He is also the founder of the Feminist Pen Foundation, an international nonprofit dedicated to advocacy, innovation, and social impact. His work spans technology, child safety, immigration strategy, and human rights initiatives across multiple countries.

Reflection Question

Where in your life or career have you assumed that hard work alone would be enough—and what additional skills, relationships, or visibility ultimately helped create new opportunities?

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:02

Hello and welcome to the Thriving in Intersectionality Podcast. A podcast that explores the real experiences of professionals navigating the workplace with layered lead identities. I'm your host, Dr. Lola Ateemo, the CEO of EQI Mindset and founder of the nonprofit Immigrants Incorporate, Inc. I'm also an author, speaker, and a workplace inclusion strategist. I work with organizations to build communities of belonging through strategy, storytelling, and systems change. This podcast amplifies the voices of professionals from intersectional backgrounds, immigrants, ethnic minorities, first-gen professionals, veterans, working parents, individuals with disabilities, and so many more. Through solo reflections and guest conversations, we'll uncover the eating challenges, celebrate the wins, and offer insights to help you thrive, not just survive in the corporate world. Because in today's global workforce, longing isn't just a bonus, it's the catalyst for real growth and impact. Let's dive in. All right, welcome back everyone to another episode of the Thriving in Intersectionality Podcast. A space created to explore the lived-layered experience of diverse individuals, leaders, entrepreneurs, uh, advocates who are doing the work to for us to get to know the behind the scenes that we don't usually get to know a lot of times about people. And so the podcast itself is called Thriving in Intersectionality. So I always love to ground this in the definition of that word. What is intersectionality? I came across the word uh a couple of years ago when I was working with my book that is titled by the same name, Thriving in Intersectionality. And my exposure to it was through the lens of the work of uh Kimberley Crensher, who was exploring race and gender. And so I love to share that information with people too because she's still actively doing the work. And if you look on YouTube, you look online, you can find a lot of resources around intersectionality for your education. Um, but it's a it's it's the lead-layered experience that we all experience, uh we all encounter at work and in the way we do the work we do. This is the definition or the way I'll sort of put it together. Intersectionality is a framework that recognizes our multiple aspects of identity, such as nationality, immigration experience, race, profession, class, education, social systems, how all of these things overlap and interact in such a way that it shapes our experience of the world and how we lead through the world. And a lot of times we are not looking at all those species, and if you look at individuals that seem to have the same labels and titles, you might assume so many things, but we are all multi-layered, and that's really the crux of these podcasts is to explore the lead-layered experience of humans that are navigating the world of work, the world of entrepreneurship, um, or corporate spaces, whatever that looks like. So my guests always bring different perspectives, and and today I have uh a guest that of course touches so many of those layers around entrepreneurship, around uh corporate work, and even advocacy. And I'm looking forward to having him on. But before I bring that in, I'm gonna share a little bit about him, which is, and when I say a little, I mean a little because he's got a whole lot behind him. He has done so much work in his spaces, and I'm so excited to introduce him. Vasantan Ramakrishnan, born in Madura, India, is an entrepreneur, he's an immigration consultant, he's a technologist, and he's an human rights activist that is known for developing AI-based child safety systems. He founded Ascend HSI Advisory Partners, is a firm that specializes in US employment-based visas. Vass began his technical career at the MIT Accathon, where he led the development of a non-contact glucometer later deployed in rural India. And then he went on to found the Feminist Penn Foundation, where he created SICE, an AI tool to detect cyberbullying across languages and platforms. Vass has supported over 300 immigration clients with more than 160 successful filings. He's also received multiple honorary doctorates and awards. He's the author of two books, and he gained recognition in global media for his contributions to technology and child safety advocacy. So I told you his bio was heavy. There's a lot more to that. But thank you so much for your contribution to the world of technology as well as uh education and immigration consulting, Bass. How are you doing today?

SPEAKER_02 5:28

Doing great, doing great. Thank you for that kindest introduction, though. I really, really appreciate it. Thank you so much. I'm uh super excited to be here.

SPEAKER_00 5:35

Yeah, love having you in this space as well. And I um I always like to tell people I don't always know, I haven't had deep conversations with my guests when I come on. So my questions are really also coming from a place of curiosity. Like we all come into people's lives knowing bios. We come at different entry points of everyone's story. We don't know the behind the scenes. And my goal is that people walk away from these conversations knowing more about the person behind the titles and the word and knowing people's why. So, Lars, let's get to know you a little bit. Um, when you think about the world intersectionality, what aspects of your life and experience have shaped how you see yourself and your work today?

SPEAKER_02 6:22

Got it. Great question, actually. And for me, that I would say it divides into three main pillars. One is the immigrant identity itself, which is super important because of the country that I'm living in. Second is neurodivergence, and I'll jump into that. And third is empathy through lived experiences. So when I first talk about immigrant identity, I am obviously an immigrant. I have moved countries. I was originally born in Madurai, India. Madurai was a very, I mean, is still a very small town in a southern part of uh India. It's still a very rural place. I mean, there's not a lot of technologies, and you know, honestly, when I was uh in my grade school, I mean I'm talking about fifth or sixth grade, being able to buy a Game Boy, right? I mean, it's one of those Nintendo tools. Being able to buy Game Boy is the ultimate brag in my circle, right? Because we never got them. You you couldn't buy it. Uh, my luckily my mother actually moved to the US around 2005 for her work, and she was one of the few people in a class of about 40, 45 students in my classroom that had access to Nintendo. So we used to talk about, oh, you know, like the people like my friends used to say, hey, you know what? VAS got a Nintendo. That used to be a big deal, and that's the type of town that I'm from, by the way. I just want to be honest there. Uh, we didn't have technology, uh, you know, not a lot of households actually had air conditioners, and you know, being able to buy a car when I was um 15 years old, I mean it's not my car, it's obviously a family car, but that hatchback sedan that we got uh in 2008 was a huge deal, right? So that's kind of where I come from, and that's why it's important for me to talk about that. Uh, and I moved to the US in 2016 as a student, uh, obviously on an iPhone visa right now. Uh, thankfully, I'm a permanent resident. But the journey that got me here and the difficulties all have really defined what I mean by that immigrant identity because every day of my life, even though I'm a permanent resident right now, I'm gonna be citizen soon, I always think about that identity that I am an immigrant. It's not necessarily a bad thing though. When I say, hey, I'm an immigrant, it's not a bad thing, but I'm just letting people know where I've come from and that I share stories that might be common with other people. I don't know. I've met a lot of people in uh you know conferences and events, and I talk with them and they're like, Oh, you know what? I know this place and I've been, and they might be from a completely different country, and they're like, No, I've actually been to Madurai. Is it the temple city, right? So they just come up with these things, and you know, it's it's an interesting conversation. I tell them that that's where I grew up, and then it's it's a whole interesting conversation. So that's kind of the lens that I would put the immigrant identity. It's not necessarily supposed to take away uh from who I am, but basically just saying, hey, this is who I am, and these are the experiences I basically had. And then touching quickly on the second point here on the neurodivergence, I don't really talk about it a lot on podcasts in general, but we are here about intersectionality. I think that's really important.

SPEAKER_00 9:03

Thank you for sharing that. I think that's important too.

SPEAKER_02 9:06

Yes, you know, it it really is, and it definitely like you know defines uh a large part of how I talk, how I interact with people. I am autistic, by the way. I mean, I'm undiagnosed actually. I'm from one of those countries where uh you know autism diagnosis is not up to the mark and there's no special education schools, there's nothing like that. Of course, I've adapted a great deal though. I've struggled for decades in school, it was really difficult for me with social skills and all of that. But I've put in an enormous amount of work and you know, now I'm actually able to, you know, kind of sound typical. I want to use the word very carefully, sound typical. I'm not a typical, but I sound typical. But uh that's gotten its own set of difficulties. I've had to go through a lot of training, therapy to kind of you know come to where I am right now. So that's that's the second thing here. And third thing is just like empathy through lived experiences. I think that's something that uh I believe all of us have in common, right? We've all experienced moments of uncertainty, reinvention, having literally no choice, you know, and having to like take decisions and trying to prove ourselves in unfamiliar environments, which I did. And that that changes people, right? It it does, and it also makes you pay attention to people who are brilliant but overlooked. And I think that's one really, really important aspect that I have, then other people that I can look at people and I'm not just looking at did they graduate out of Harvard or like are they intelligent, but there are aspects that I can usually pick up that other people are usually not actively looking for. So that that's kind of how I would put my identity into those three buckets, if that made sense.

SPEAKER_00 10:33

Thank you. Yes, it does, and I I really loved it. Um, I feel like it covers a whole range of things. Um of course, the you know, we talked about visible and invisible differences. I I think even looking at you, people could assume the immigrant one, but nobody can assume the neurodivergent one, right? Because you you don't know what you don't know. So thank you for sharing. Um, I think those were great uh perspectives, and obviously I feel like the three you also shared is kind of really heavily impacted the work that you do today. So we'll dive into that uh in a little bit when we talk about your work. But I wanted to also have you walk us through your career journey a little bit. You have uh been an entrepreneur for a while, you've worked on some really amazing inventions in the technology space. Um, but walk us through that behind the scenes. How did you get here? Right? You talked about being educated and maybe the choices of what you studied and those kind of milestones. So let us get to know you a little bit more through the journey, your career journey lens.

SPEAKER_02 11:39

Oh, yeah, that's gonna be interesting because my career was completely nonlinear. I mean, uh, I know like a lot of people have that story, but mine was completely nonlinear. Uh, at a higher level, I mean I'm gonna like dive down here, but at a higher level, uh, starting from being born in India, studying engineering, mechanical engineering, and automotive engineering, which is completely unrelated to what I'm doing right now. I moved to the US again with industrial engineering, which was a slight switch, not that much. And then realization that my passion is in human rights and advocacy. I got into Feminism Foundation, that's when I started Feminist Foundation, uh, about uh July of 2020, and I've been running it since the last six years now at this point, uh, and we're running in four countries India, Dubai, Netherlands, and the US. Uh, that's that. And then I I didn't quite move away from human rights and advocacy, but it's more of an advancement or you know, kind of like uh annexing. I kind of annexed immigration into my human rights and advocacy, and I'm right now like running ascend. Uh, but but it's it's not all that different. The big shift for me was moving from India to the US and then moving from engineering, which was mechanical and automotive engineering, all the way to industrial, all the way to human rights and advocacy, and now to immigration law. So, you know, that's that. But uh jumping into it, uh, you know, like to be more specific, when I started off with my engineering background, I thought, like, you know, when I was young and all that, and I thought, hey, you know what, I'm gonna be an automotive engineer at I don't know, like General Motors or Mercedes. I even got an offer from uh Mercedes when I was back home. This was like when I was super young, and I thought that that was what I was gonna be doing. I was gonna be doing industrial design or I was gonna be doing HVAC for vehicles and trucks, and that's what I thought my life was. But definitely, I think a part of you know where that thought and where that direction came from was from parents, which I'm thankful for, of course. You know, they get made in the right way, but at the same time, I think that was a point when my passions were not fully explored, which is what I personally feel that a lot of people from outside the US have in common, because we're not really given a lot of exposure. So, because of the limited exposure, you know, we're just like, oh, I think this is what I want to do, but we don't explore anything else that's not safe, which is what happened for me. Went for engineering, which is a common thing Indians go for, by the way. Uh, and then just like, you know, started out with that, but then when I moved to the US, I immediately understood that that's not for me. So, right at the core of COVID, right? I mean, I graduated in uh May of 2020, by the way, from my master's program from Purdue. Uh, you know, industrial engineering, and then I got out, and then I'm like, okay, uh, I got an internship offer from a manufacturing company in Illinois, it's a small company. Uh, I started out, and then, you know, I uh luckily or unluckily, I don't know how to say this, but I wanted to just visit my family back home for one month in March 2020 without the whole COVID story. I went back home for a one-month vacation, and that turned into a seven-month vacation because of global lockdowns. I'm stuck out, right? It was crazy. I'm I'm sure, like, you know, uh, you had your own version of like, you know, what you were going through during that time. Uh, but I was definitely crazy. I got stuck for seven months in India, of course, with my family, so it's not like really stuck, but I couldn't do my job though, because my job was manufacturing, it was industrial, you had to be in the facility to you know do the work. Uh, I mean, without no surprise, I got fired because they couldn't really do anything about it. Um, and then in between is when my thoughts come in, and then I started pondering, I started thinking about what I really want to do in life, and that's when the Feminist Pen Foundation came in. I've always I've always been an advocate for gender equality, and I've always been an advocate for intersectional feminism. Even in feminism, I've always like focused on intersectional feminism, and that's when I started looking at different sects of population, right? Sect S C C T C S, of population that were struggling at the time, you know, people who did not have uh uh resources, who, you know, there was a population in India, by the way, at the time who could not even call the ambulances, and the ambulances would not get them because of a suspected transmissible disease, which is not true at all, by the way. They don't have that disease, but they think that they have that, and then ambulances and hospitals would not even admit them. So that's the kind of populations we worked during the COVID time through Feminist Foundation. We were doing advocacy work, we were raising funds, we were doing campaigns on all of that, but at the same time, we were also doing groundwork during COVID, uh, saving a lot of human lives. And I think that's that got me rewarded with you know a lot of awards, and the government recognized me. A lot of organizations came forward and published me on magazines. I was I've been on cover magazines, I've been on, you know, I've gotten a lot of awards. I have like three hundred doctorates, all of that. I mean, these are all accolades, but at the end of the day, behind every award, there's a story on like why we did what we did. In fact, uh, there's an interesting thing. I got invited by uh NBC and Amazon Prime for a program. I couldn't do it at the time though, due to like commitments, and I was a student at the time, it was really funny. But they were gonna put me on as a nonprofit entrepreneur focusing on SciSafe, the the cybersecurity tool that we built, and they wanted to actually put that out on a 25-minute episode on Amazon Prime and NBC. That was like super cool there. But um, had a lot of interesting things happen, right? When I moved from engineering to nonprofits, I immediately understood that's where my passion is because I could do so good so fast. Then the evolution just comes from there to immigration because I had to worry about my own immigration because even though I have this nonprofit, I'm doing all these awesome things in four countries, I have I'm still an F1 student, right? I'm on OPT, I have to figure out what's going on. So after having a lot of conversations with a lot of immigration lawyers, they recommended that I should go for the extraordinary ability visa, you know, that I am already extraordinary and I have all this X, and Y, and Z. So, long story short, I basically filed for my EB1, I got my green card, and then after that, a lot of people started asking how can you, with a non-traditional background, with not like an executive, not being, you know, like a professor, how did you get your you know, main thing was like you don't have a PhD, how did you get your green card? And then I started advising people kind of like on and off, just like letting them know, friends, families, networks, and then that just became a send. And right now we are a hundred person company, we've been able to help hundreds and hundreds of families from all around the world. It's been super exciting, but that's kind of where it started, uh Lola.

SPEAKER_00 17:27

Yeah, I I I love what I love about your story is you know, I I've I've heard the different versions of non-linear as well. And and when I talk to students these days where they worry so much, just telling them just finish the next thing you have in front of you. And you never really know. I mean, if it's important for you to get that degree, get the degree, finish it. Um, but just know that you know your path might look very different. Uh, but none of this is ever wasted. So as I hear you talk, just talking about seeing a need, following a passion, seeing a need, following a passion, and that speaks to me through your story is the you know, from engineer to working in manufacturing to starting uh feminist pen foundation. Feminist pen still out?

SPEAKER_02 18:13

It it is, yes, it is still out, and we're just more volunteer driven at the moment. Okay, uh, but it it's still out, we're just not having a lot of funds at the moment, but we're we're more volunteer driven at the moment. We're still operating, though.

SPEAKER_00 18:24

Yeah, feminist pen and then the the cyber cyber si safe.

SPEAKER_02 18:29

Sci safe, yes. The tool is already embedded. Yes, yes, yes, yeah. So sizeafe is basically a I mean, this was again, you have to like really get the context by the way, because this was before LLMs. Right now, I know LLMs can pretty much do everything, but SciSafe was developed at a time when ChatGPT did not exist, when LLM was not even a thing. People talked about AI, but the AI that people knew was store was on what IBM supercomputers, right? Nobody heard what AI was, nobody had access to it. So at the time, we built actually a tool, like and I had a an engineer who was like super brilliant, he's my cousin actually. So, who built the tool that would basically understand context right out of uh bullying in social media that's the whole thing because we understood that a lot of people, a lot of children, particularly like teens and preteens, kind of faking their age and getting on social media because Instagram would have like an 18, uh, I think now they changed it, but back then you had to be 18 to even sign up, you had to be 16 to sign up, something like that. But what children would do is they would put a they would not put the right date of birth and they would get on there and they'd be seeing content that they should not be seeing, and some of them experience bullying in the forms that they don't fully adequately understand, right? So that's where my tool gets in. It's basically a a browser plugin that you get added that you just add it to your uh you know your browser, and then it scans the content and to make sure that if anything, if any bullying is happening to you or to somebody else, it will basically just block the content. We didn't have you know AI at the time, so we couldn't take a lot of actions per se. It couldn't just go and modify the content, or it couldn't just give you like a verbal warning because it was like way back, like you know, when technology did not really exist that much. But what our tool was able to do was able to mine and like block that content so that the child is not seeing the content. So, and the one of the notable things we did, which is what I got the Honorary Doctorate for, by the way, was that we were able to get sentences that were mixed in six sentences, six languages, one sentence, six different languages using emojis. You can throw anything in there, and the tool is going to understand what that person means and if it's bullying or not. Because a lot of people are hiding, by the way. They used to use you know really inappropriate uh emojis to kind of like intimidate people, but power tool got that actually. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:35

Wow, that's pretty cool. Yeah, definitely worth looking into thank you for sharing that. And then um the the immigration, I mean, so your work. I guess the question I should ask now, we touched on a little bit of the different parts of your work and your career journey. So your work really advanced technology, advocacy, immigration, global talent. So when you look back, is there anything that connects all of these different chapters for you?

SPEAKER_02 21:04

I would say for me, you know what? I'm I'm kind of thinking for the right word, right? I would say, you know what, at a fundamental level, it's human dignity and visibility. I know the the visibility part kind of comes in later for you know, more of like you know, the immigration side of things, but it's really just human dignity, right? Like, you know, when I say human dignity, a lot of the nonprofit work we did early on was all about human dignity, right? I mean, it was like about people who were not given their fundamental rights, and those fundamental rights were taken away. And our big goal at the time was not to do anything fancy, we don't want to raise a million dollars on all those things, we just wanted to give them their dignity back. So that was a very mission-driven uh value that we had at the moment in the organization. That's why that human dignity and the visibility part comes in later on for immigration, whether it was technology, whether it was human rights work, whether it was entrepreneurship, media, or immigration strategy. I've always kind of found myself drawn to the same problem again and again, which is people with tremendous. Tremendous ability, tremendous intelligence, tremendous, not opportunities, but tremendous capability, but not having the options, not having the access. And because of their intersectional uh, you know, like the features that they come with, basically that they're born with, they're not given their access. So I was kind of really fascinated by that particular gap between that impact and recognition. And that's kind of what like drove me to, you know, do everything that I'm doing, by the way. And that's with technology, that's with nonprofits, immigration, the whole thing.

SPEAKER_00 22:28

Yeah, because I was I I love that. I think human dignity and visibility sort of captures a thread that I see. You, you know, you're saying visibility comes later. No, I actually think that's been part of it. Because the work you're doing with uh feminist pen, the work you're doing uh with SciSafe, I I think all of that is locked in your passion um for visibility to the right courses, visibility to the problem, visibility to issues, visibility to pathways for immigrants, and and and it's uh it shows that deep roots in you being passionate about uh human dignity. So I I definitely see the the threat there of you doing the same thing. And I think it's similar to our conversation earlier on on why. You know, when you know sort of what you are passionate about, the how can look very different. The how can change. Um, I've been running my home business now for about seven years too, and but I think of some of the early videos I had of my work and some of the podcasts that I went on then, and the fact that I'm able to listen to those podcasts and everything still rings true.

SPEAKER_01 23:38

I think that's very important, not a lot of people can say that, by the way.

SPEAKER_00 23:41

Exactly, because even though my hour has changed, I heard that I heard myself talk about the things that I care about then. And I feel so, you know, as an entrepreneur, sometimes you start to doubt yourself, like what am I doing? Like, I don't know what I'm doing, or I'm not making enough money, or you know, some people are having more success than I am, and so some moments when I'm questioning myself like that. Whenever I would go back and I'll see a video of myself being interviewed years ago and here, I was like, man, okay, I've been consistent, I still care. That video is still very true, and and I'm so grateful that we get to shape our why, our how in the way we want to, you know, how do I do it?

SPEAKER_02 24:22

Correct, because the why is fixed, and then we're just kind of you know moving the how in between different businesses, different ideas, different timelines, maybe. But the why is like, okay, hey, this is why we're doing what we're doing. This is why we're doing what we're doing. That's amazing.

SPEAKER_00 24:34

And and the how will change with time, right? Leverage technology, those engineering skills, they they don't come, they don't go to waste. The degree is never wasted.

SPEAKER_02 24:44

Oh, yeah. Every day though, there's like one instance that I'm just like, you know what, hey, I know this because of my engineering background, you know, so it's it's always helpful.

SPEAKER_00 24:51

Yeah, it's always helpful. But you you package it very well to do good. So thank you for the work you're doing. So um I do a lot of employee resource group consulting. So I'm working with businesses um and the B2B area, I'm working with organizations and employee resource group leaders, and but I also have a nonprofit called Immigrants Incorporate, and I I bring that lens into my work a lot. I'm also an immigrant, I was born and raised in Nigeria, and and when I got into corporate America and all these Fortune 500 companies that I worked in, just seeing that gap in our context is understood, um, our community really helps to support immigrants uh who are working within this corporate space. And so your background around that also wants me to dive into some of the things you you you talked about in the work that you do with immigration consultants, so global talent, immigration, and some of the impact. So um one of the things that you say is that immigration is not just uh paperwork. And I I I saw that in your bio, I saw that in your your materials, and I wholeheartedly agree is a long-term bet on your future. Can you expand on that?

SPEAKER_02 26:06

Absolutely, yes. So, whenever uh people talk about immigration, and like you know, even like someone hears the word immigration, and that be Americans, immigrants, right? I mean, like everybody, like I'm not like you know saying a specific person, the first thing that kind of comes to their mind is immigration is a legal process. Well, that statement is not untrue, and I'm using the words carefully here. It is true, yes, there's a part of it that is a heavily legal process, but in reality, when you look at the layers, you're looking at you know a lifeline, right? Like immigration can be someone's lifeline, and more for most immigrants, I think that's true. It's a lifeline, it becomes a life strategy. So anything that has to do with immigration is then a life strategy, it's not about just the legal process. Yes, legal process is a small face in it, but that's not what all of that is. So, you know, when I I have always I can when I talk to people, I always say you're making decisions today that affect your opportunities, family, geography, earning potential, career mobility, psychological safety, and even just 5, 10, 15, 20 years from now, right? I mean, decisions you take today in these regards can affect you five, ten years from now. So, for a lot of immigrants, I personally feel that immigration requires delayed gratification at a very, very deep level because you're investing in something, you're investing in a future version of yourself that you're not there yet, but you're investing on it right now because there's a little bit of certainty that you have work with. So that's kind of how I would uh define it, Lola, that it is an immigration, immigration is always a long term but on the future. Do not look at that as a legal paper or process. Yes, there's a part to it, but that's not what all that is, right?

SPEAKER_00 27:38

Right, and and the legal aspect of it, all you know, if you make the wrong one, I think that's why people need help, and that's why people take their time. Because if you make the wrong one, there's an implication that you might not be able to unravel down the road to your point.

SPEAKER_02 27:53

So precisely, all right.

SPEAKER_00 27:55

So when we think of the when well, when I personally think of the immigrant professionals I work with, a lot of them are in corporate America trying to find their path. Some people even have tons of experience back home. And they come here, it's like you're starting starting from um from scratch, and one of the bigger things is we're very educated, highly capable, right? Lots of degrees and but a lot of immigrants and international professional skill, highly capable but invisible within this large system. So, why why do you think what is what is your perspective on that?

SPEAKER_02 28:36

Yes, this is a bit of layers. This is a very interesting question, by the way, because it's a very, very common question that keeps coming to me, uh, especially in like sales calls when I like you know talk with someone and then they're talking about hey, you know what, this is my life, this is what I've done, and you know, I would say 90% of the time that person is probably uh old enough to be my father sometimes, right? I mean, I you know, and that's the amount of experience they have, they have like 17, 20, 26 years. I have someone who's 26 years. Uh, probably when that person started working, I was like four years old, so that's how things were. But but why are they there on that call, right? So, and I've always thought about that question like uh uh like you know a lot and like deeply. And I feel personally, again, this might not apply to a lot of people, but a good sect of people is many immigrants, and I think people from our countries, right? Like, you know, from Africa, from Asia, we are raised to believe that competence alone will speak for itself, and that's the main statement that our parents teach us that you do not need to go and market yourself, you do not need to go and do everything, but the truth will speak, the competence will speak for itself, and I think that's something that's of course it's stuck to us, right? Because we, you know, our parents like really put that value, our teachers put that value. But the one area where I personally feel like where it does not apply is when it comes to USCS, when it comes to immigration, unfortunately not. You know, they want to see it, they want to see it documented, they want a paper trial, they want everything to be documented. That's not how we run our lives, obviously. We're all going around doing awesome things, but we're not thinking about, oh, I'm gonna use it like three years from now, I'm going to document it. I'm gonna take that a word picture, I'm going to take a picture of this, picture of that. We don't think about that. So I think that's kind of like how I would define it. It's a systems mismatch. I call it like I use that word a lot and called systems mismatch. So the reality is that we all know that the modern systems that that have been built with USCIS and with immigration systems, they don't work that way. They don't go with oh, competence alone will speak. So you have to obviously mean talent will matter, visibility will matter, communication matters, networking matters, positioning matters. Positioning being the most important point, I would say is definitely how we position. That person could be the best researcher in the world, but if they're not positioned in the right way, the whole message gets lost, you know. So that's that's very important. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:47

I I love I love that you said that because so I work with a lot of people who are within a different system, and I I love that we're saying exactly the same thing. So a lot of times when I'm talking to people that are stuck within the corporate system, right? The corporate America, the corporate America, and I always tell people it's a system, you have to understand the way the system works. You know, part of the coaching that we do is first you need to understand the system that you're working with. So the US, the immigration system is a system, corporate America is a system, and for you, it doesn't matter where you're coming from, if you are coming within a system, you need to know how it works. And and a lot of times it's the same thing with corporate America. People think just work hard, just keep my head down, just work hard. But working hard is not enough.

SPEAKER_02 31:33

You know, unfortunately not. Unfortunately not. In today's world, I mean, there's a lot of people working hard, and then sometimes you just get you know disappeared, and and then there's the cultural factors as well, right? I mean, certain cultures, uh, it's not okay. I mean, in I I've heard in uh from some friends from Japanese cultures that it's not polite to talk when other people are talking and/or talking about yourself, and that that's there, and there's a lot of cultural layers, right? I mean, that that makes it more complicated. But one line though, here uh that's important, uh Lola, not to like talk about the business per se, but one of the things that that personally for me, and this is maybe for uh you as a business person and for like the business listeners, maybe it might help, is also kind of gaining perspectives, more perspectives into the type of people we're working with, right? So for me personally, why I've had a lot of growth is always kind of kind of trying to reach to the right people, not only reach to the right people, but also kind of having them around me, right? Like from a networking standpoint, like right now with SN, like what we do is we have our main office obviously in the US. I'm talking to you from it right now, but we also have an office in Ecosy Lagos, right? And I have an eight-person team that works from there. I have a team from Brazil that's working, I have a team from India that's working right now from like six different cities, and we're expanding out to Vietnam, South Korea. Again, I'm not talking about the business aspect of it at all, by the way. That is not at all important. But what I'm focusing on is like why we have those local offices, is so that we can understand those intersectional perspectives. We can understand the locality, the culture, the language, all of that, you'll need to have locals who can give you that perspective so that you can help them in the right ways. And that's the point kind of I I really wanted to add in there, you know? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:05

No, the community, community looks very different. The kind of community we need looks very different. And, you know, I know we're in the world where everybody thinks, you know, global work and all of that, but you still need your local, local community, whatever space that you need. Okay, so let's talk a little bit more about um the immigration consulting part of your work because I think that's definitely tied a lot to uh global talent and and the workforce. Most organizations that I work with have branches all over different countries, and and so I have conversations around cultural navigation, right? So we have all these companies that treat their team and their culture as US culture, but they have employees all over and they are selling products that they want to sell all over. I'm like, there's gonna be a cultural layer. So talk about what you do, um, talk about your consultancy right now, and and what what do you do?

SPEAKER_02 34:02

Correct, correct. So for us though, with the US main office, of course, we serve all uh immigration service line, we're full service immigration law firm, which means that we, I mean, although I'm not directly a lawyer, I actually have lawyers in my firm that actually operate in that the front face of uh essence law team. So, with the way that our structure works, is like we have our main office in the US that serves uh EB1A, EB1B, EB1C, all types of immigration visas, all types of non-immigrant visas. Uh, and this is for the people here, and we also serve people worldwide because immigration law is a federal matter, which means that any person from anywhere in the world can reach out to us and be like, okay, I want to move to the US. We also serve limited European clients as well, by the way, to move to countries like Portugal and France. So that's another layer there as well that we do. But essentially, how I would pack it is basically anybody from anywhere in the world, including the US, also, if they want to permanently work in the US or permanently live in the US and France and Portugal, we will be able to make that happen. So that's at a higher level, like you know, kind of what we do. Of course, there's different service lines like EB1A, EB1B, uh, more for researchers and EB1C more for executives, and then we have O1s for talented artists and all that, and then we have uh L1As, L1Bs. There's a lot of categories that we serve, but uh kind of like the model that we have found a lot of success in, which helps people a lot, is the service first model where we have local employees and local teams that actually work with the members, right? Uh, for example, like you know, we we work with a lot of people from uh Nigeria at the moment, like from Abuja and uh, you know, Lagos. And with them, what we have understood is like they're really prioritizing the cultural aspects of it. They want to work with someone who understands who they are, they want to work with someone who knows what they're saying, right? I mean, someone from the US might not really know what they're saying, so that's why we had a local team, like we have an eight-person team, a physical office that works out of there, um, you know, full-time, and you know, they understand the perspectives, they take those calls, you know, they go on those sales calls, they talk about what their problems are, they understand their problems and kind of provide that perspective, even though all of these things are not part of the service itself, right? Because when you when you look at like what service you're providing, yeah, you're just doing a service. Let's say you're selling bottles, you're just selling bottles, that's all. But it's in how you sell the bottles, it's who sells it, it's who takes uh the customer service calls. I mean, we don't really sell bottles, but I'm just kind of using that as an example, that that cultural aspect and the identity part becomes extremely important for customers and clients so that they feel understood and they know that they're talking to someone who can really understand their problem from a uh, I guess like multi-cultural slash multi-lens, I would say.

SPEAKER_00 36:31

Yeah, yeah, and that's the the power of intersectionality itself, as you said, is um, I think we we sometimes diminish the impacts that these things have on people's experiences. I you know, I've talked to people that I know, you sound smart, but I don't think I can work with you. And it's not impersonal, it's just I have to kind of personally connect. I love the people that I personally connect to before I can work with you. Uh yeah, and and sometimes it doesn't matter if you just want to execute a task and then you get it done. But then when it's some long-term relationship, sometimes you need a little bit more of I need somebody that understands my context. Um, so if anybody wants to reach out to you um at Ascend, is there an email? I like you to just spell it out just because we have some people listening in, and of course I will be adding it to the show notes as well.

SPEAKER_02 37:24

Oh, got it. Yeah, email is easy. Uh mine is uh Vas, it's uh V A S at A S C E N D H S I.com. So it's again V-A-S at A-S-C-E-N-D H S I.com.

SPEAKER_00 37:42

All right, yeah, thank you. So if you are in my network, and I know this is, you know, again, I have a group from Immigrants Incorporated, I have a group of ERG leaders and workplace professionals. If you're hiring talent globally, um, and there's some of these conversations that need to be had, you know, some some organizations do have employees on different visa categories, um, and and this is where that that starts from. And then if you're an individual that's sort of navigating that space as well, as far as visa types, um definitely reach out. All right, as we close this out, um, I I like to tie it back to the intersectionality of you. That that that question that I asked earlier. So when you look back on your own journey, Vass, how do you think your lived experiences continue to shape your leadership and advocacy today?

SPEAKER_02 38:35

Got it. So it flows into a few aspects. Uh, first of all, I would say, like, you know, in the decision making, which is the most important thing I think. Whenever I take a decision, I don't think through just service lines, I don't just think through, you know, what new product or revenues or KPIs. I really think about the human behind the screen, right? That's the term I use always. That if I were the screen the human behind that screen, right, flipped, flipped the script, would I do this or not? And if I if my answer is no, I'm not going to do it. So that's that's super important. I also teach that to you know our team members, the senior leadership, so that they can actually you know bring down to the associate level. But that's something that we always talk about, though. Like if let's say you're going to take a decision that involves somebody else, if you were that other person, would you take that decision or not? And if your answer is no, do not do that. That's wrong because you know that's fundamentally wrong. So that's that's one. And definitely also even the new initiatives, even at a company level or like you know, whatever uh you know, initiatives that I want to do, nonprofit, advocacy, tech, immigration, I always do things that really personally relate to me, right? I'm not gonna probably go and buy a laundromat because that doesn't really relate to me, right? So I have to do things that really relate to me, and I'm very choosy in who I work with, what I do, and how I deliver what I deliver. So I think that's how that lived experience goes for me because I know what I've gone through and I'm pretty specific on how I want to operate, pretty specific on how I want to take decisions, and also kind of like what I want to do in the future as well. It really drives me in that way.

SPEAKER_00 39:59

Yeah, I love it. Yeah, and that intentionality definitely comes from your own lived experience, it comes from all of those layers that um you shared earlier again about being an immigrant, uh, about uh neurodivergence and and um and the empathy that you lead with. So I think that definitely shows up. So thank you for that. And so let's let's go a little more specific for two audiences. First, let's start with immigrant professionals or global professionals. Uh, that's what advice will you give to anyone who is maybe an immigrant professional or um across different countries, a global professional who is working across countries that feel uncertain about their future, or maybe they are feeling underestimated in their fields. What advice will you give to them now as they think through their next step?

SPEAKER_02 40:49

Got it. An immediate next step is obviously, you know, I would say, like, you know, start with documentation, right? Like, you know, uh when whenever you think about your life and what you've done, you know, when you think though, you don't really get the full picture. I've had that a lot in calls when clients are thinking, they don't get it. But when they go down to the paper, right, whether that be like a pencil in a paper or like a Google Work document, when they put down their thoughts, journal their thoughts on like what have I done in the last 10, 15, 20 years, people would be pleasantly surprised what they find out because they would have done a whole lot more what they thought that they have done. So that's definitely step one, document it. Step two is find the right person to talk about it, right? And that doesn't need to be my firm or like a specific firm, but find an expert who you can talk to about it so that they can help you organize your thoughts because a lot of times we have like X, Y, Z, you know, so many things, but how do we organize it? You need a person who already knows how to like present it to get an opinion on it. So the second one is seek the expert, and the third thing is also kind of this is a more of a personal exercise. Think about two things uniqueness and consequence. Uniqueness is basically how unique am I in the work that I do, in the impact I've created, in the organizations I've worked, in the life that I've lived, and what has been the consequence of all of that uniqueness. That's a really good exercise, by the way, because I've done that with a lot of entrepreneurs and they get pleasantly surprised about I didn't even know that my company does this and my competitor does not do that. And I didn't know that because of what I did, this is the results we got. We changed like 100, 200, 300 lives. You never think about it, but when you really put it down, you get that. So I would say that that's a good starting point. Start with documentation, talk to an expert, write down again like you know your uniqueness and consequence. And for some people, it might even make sense to like push step three before step two and document the uniqueness plus consequence and then seek the expert. But hey, it's up to them. You know, some people would like to just talk to them and then start organizing. But I would say, like, that's a good start, uh Rola, for you to like you know, get going if you're an immigrant.

SPEAKER_00 42:43

Yeah, thank you. That that was so specific, and I think even as you're talking, I'm thinking I probably need to do that.

SPEAKER_02 42:50

It helps a lot, you know. Yeah, it's not really specific. I think it helps everybody. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:54

I think of some of the things I've done, it comes to me and I'm like, oh yeah, I did that, right? Like even client work, even in corporate America, right? So um writing it down, documenting it. We can't we have time to journal it, you know. A lot of times we forget to document our wins as we are working. Uh, but we can think about it and put it down and turn it into something really useful for the next phase. So thank you so much for sharing that. And then the other part of the question will be for organizations. So again, I work with a lot of you know, head of HR, head of DEI, and and um the people that are responsible for hiring and recruiting uh global talent. So when you think about this population of people that have decision-making power within companies, how can organizations and organization leaders better support their international talent uh within their company?

SPEAKER_02 43:48

That's a great question, by the way. Yes, because this uh the first piece we talked about was just only one part of the puzzle, and then the second one needs to attach for it to be successful, though. Uh, of course, if someone is an entrepreneur, yes, this won't Apply and then you're probably gonna just follow the first steps. But if you are working in corporate, yes, the second piece is like really important. Uh, for organizations in general, I've done some podcasts there as well, and I always tell them that hey, you know what, go beyond DEI buzzwords, and this is something that you know ruffles a lot of feathers in the uh HR industry, but I'm still gonna say it because some people do what is called transactional inclusion, right? So, transactional inclusion is basically just for like values and KPIs and all of that. You start throwing in numbers and you use DEI terms, but we should not be doing transactional inclusion, but rather we should be doing structural inclusion. Structural inclusion is what starts from the ground up from the root of every decision you're making. You need to think about inclusion, you need to think about DEI, right? So that's there, and then beyond that, how does that play into action, right? I mean, this is all like okay, more of like a theory and more of a thought process. How does that boil down to actual action items? Is yeah, when they're having interviews and they're talking with an immigrant, you know, go beyond their situation, right? And I've seen like a lot of HR calls when, you know, maybe even myself included, you know, the first question that I get is usually okay, what status are you on? Do you or will you need sponsorship in the future, right? And that that's usually a blocker question for a lot of F1 students who think that their future is done. But maybe HR leaders can also ask them more about what their plan is. What are you looking to do? What are your goals? What is your mission? They can even tie it back to the company and talk about how does that mission relate to my company, right? That's a great thing to ask, but always ask about their future plans so that the person can talk to you about what their future plans is. And basically, you might not miss a huge, you know, like a really talented candidate just because they don't have what it takes right now. Maybe they'll get that in two years or three years, you know. So that's definitely one important thing. And also, like, you know, just immigration support, which is a very obvious thing, but please support the immigrants because they're doing really important work. Always have that mindset first before going into a call, uh, rather than you know being put off by someone saying, Hey, they're an immigrant, don't be put off. Uh, whenever someone says they're an immigrant, they're bringing in a second culture, they're bringing in a second language, they bring in a second food, they're bringing in a second thought process, everything new to your organization that will surely add a layer. So, always kind of keeping that in mind is very, very important. And now the next step of it, which is like, okay, hey, uh, there's a lot of companies that have a lot of talent already. What can they do? Talk about recognition, right? Recognition for your for your candidates, recognition for your employees, recognition for your immigrant employees, you know, help them share their experiences outside, you know, talk to them, talk to them about options. Uh, more often than not, I have a lot of immigrants who are working like huge corporate companies. I'm talking 1400, 14500 companies that have all these rules that are so hard and difficult that the immigrant is not able to do anything, right? I mean, they cannot, they don't have a pathway to green card. It's basically blocked, they don't want them to do anything. And I asked the question to uh, you know, the the the candidate slash client, said then what are you going to do? And they're like, I don't know. My company is blocked. Everything, I cannot do anything, I'm not allowed to do anything. So that's not something that you want to do for your immigrants because they're not going to be loyal to your company because you're not giving them a pathway. They're already unstable, they're already uncertain. So talk about all those options, get the insights, try to really help them, right? So that's an actionable item, I would say uh corporates can really do Lola.

SPEAKER_00 47:11

Leaders, yeah, absolutely. There are definitely multiple layers to that, and and within a non-profit community, that's part of the conversation. Is education and on also helping these leaders make make before before we get to to actually retaining them, you you have to help them give do their best work within your organization.

SPEAKER_02 47:34

Exactly. I would say, like, even to just to add to that statement, I would say, like, you know, to this applies to both people, by the way, where you start matters a lot less than how consistently you build and get to your destination. So that's that's something to really keep in mind. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:46

Yeah, absolutely. Well, thank you so much, Bas. Um, I think that was great. That's a good way to um move on to my final question, which is a food question. Oh, yes, I love it. If you were to share a meal um with your co-workers, if you were to share a meal, a dish, um, a snack with people at work, what would you peek and why?

SPEAKER_02 48:09

Got it. So, again, uh, context before I answer this question, I'm a great cook, by the way. I can cook in six different cuisines. I'm amazing in the kitchen. So my wife says she loves my cooking. So, you know, I I am really good, but definitely my my favorite meal and what I would also like to present to a person uh would definitely be what is called dosa. It's basically uh a little crep, it almost looks like a uh not a sandwich per se, but like a pancake, you know, for easy understanding, but it's more crispier with piping hot sambar. Sambar is basically just a soup that's made out of lentils and it has all the right ingredients for you to like digest it easily and go in combination with the dosa. So my favorite food would definitely be dosa with piping hot sambar that I can happily make, and I'm a great cook, and I'd you know I'd make it really delicious, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 48:53

Oh my gosh. Okay, now I'm hungry. I love it. No, the home cook, knowing that investing the time to personally create it, something with variety, something with um healthy and good for everyone. I think it also ties to what you're passionate about, you know, bringing people together, being intentional about the experience. So thank you, Vas, for being here today. Um, I love chatting with you, I love uh getting to know about your work. Any final words before I wrap this up? Anything to say to my audience?

SPEAKER_02 49:24

Oh no, I think I'm uh just really happy to be in the podcast. I know we went a little lower, but I really enjoyed it by the way. Um happy to have you. Oh, it was well worth it. I would say that. Absolutely, yes.

SPEAKER_00 49:36

Thank you, Bas. All right, for everyone listening. Um, I hope you got some great tips from these. Don't forget to rate, review, and share. And I would love to engage if you are on LinkedIn, stay connected. We also have a Substack Face space where I go deeply into some of the um conversations that I had today. So check it out wherever you listen, or just email me at lola at eqimindset.com if you have any feedback. I'm looking forward to hearing from you about this. Bye, Bas.

SPEAKER_02 50:07

Thank you, bye-bye.

SPEAKER_00 50:14

Thank you for being part of today's conversation on thriving in intersectionality. If you're an HR or DEI leader and you need employee resource group or business resource group resources, let's connect and LinkedIn. I help organizations build inclusive cultures through inclusive workplace communities, strategy, and storytelling. Immigrants and first-gen professionals, join our free community at www.immigrantsincorporate.org for career support, networking, and resources in community with peers who understand your journey. Tag our podcast page on LinkedIn or connect with me directly to continue the conversation. Please don't forget to rate and review to help others discover these discussions. Keep thriving in your intersections. Your story matters. I'm Dr. Lola Adeemo, and this has been Thriving in Intersectionality Podcast.