EP 140: Belonging, Well-Being & the Systems That Help People Thrive with Dr. Melissa Durham

What does it take to create environments where people can actually thrive?

For Dr. Melissa Durham, the answer has been shaped across many different parts of her life—as a woman, single mother, healthcare professional, educator, clinician, and organizational leader.

In this episode of Thriving in Intersectionality, Dr. Lola Adeyemo sits down with Dr. Durham, Associate Professor of Clinical Pharmacy and Associate Dean of Organizational Success and Well-being at the USC Alfred E. Mann School of Pharmacy and Pharmaceutical Sciences, to explore how those experiences have shaped the way she thinks about leadership, belonging, well-being, and organizational success. 

Melissa shares the unconventional journey that took her from choosing pharmacy as a young woman seeking stability, to academia and chronic pain care, to experiencing a significant period of professional burnout that forced her to reconsider her relationship with work and leadership.

That experience became part of what shaped the work she does today.

Across her roles—as a mother, clinician, educator, and organizational leader—Melissa keeps returning to a common idea: people are more likely to succeed when the environments and systems around them are intentionally designed to support their success. 

In this episode, you'll learn:

•  How Melissa's experiences as a woman, single mother, healthcare professional, educator, and leader have shaped her approach to leadership 
•  The burnout experience that changed the trajectory of her career 
•  Why belonging and well-being are connected to organizational success 
•  How Melissa's clinical experience influences the way she approaches organizational leadership 
•  Why sustainable change requires moving beyond programs and events to systems and structures 
•  The importance of listening to people rather than assuming what they need 
•  Why accountability and compassion don't have to be opposites 
•  How values, data, strategy, and stakeholder input can guide organizations through change 
•  Why developing new leaders is essential to building communities and initiatives that last 
•  Melissa's refreshingly simple advice for navigating an uncertain future: do something useful 

One of the biggest reminders from this conversation:

Belonging and well-being aren't separate from organizational success. They're part of the conditions that make success possible.

Whether you're leading a healthcare team, university, corporation, employee community, nonprofit, or simply thinking about the environments you create for the people around you, this conversation invites us to consider a bigger question:

Are we asking people to thrive—or are we intentionally building the conditions that allow them to?

About Dr. Melissa Durham

Dr. Melissa Durham, PharmD, MACM, is an Associate Professor of Clinical Pharmacy and Associate Dean of Organizational Success and Well-being at the USC Alfred E. Mann School of Pharmacy and Pharmaceutical Sciences. She also practices as a clinical pharmacist at the USC Pain Center, bringing nearly two decades of experience across pharmacy education, chronic pain management, clinical practice, organizational leadership, and well-being. 

Her work bridges clinical rigor and human-centered leadership, with a focus on creating systems where people can learn, contribute, belong, and succeed.

Connect with Dr. Melissa Durham

🌐 The Pain Pharmacist
💼 LinkedIn

Transcript

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SPEAKER_01 0:02

Hello and welcome to the Thriving in Intersectionality Podcast. A podcast that explores the real experiences of professionals navigating the workplace with layered, leaded identities. I'm your host, Dr. Lola Ateemo, the CEO of EQI Mindset and founder of the nonprofit Immigrants Incorporate, Inc. I'm also an author, speaker, and a workplace inclusion strategist. I work with organizations to build communities of belonging through strategy, storytelling, and systems change. This podcast amplifies the voices of professionals from intersectional backgrounds, immigrants, ethnic minorities, first-gen professionals, veterans, working parents, individuals with disabilities, and so many more. Through solo reflections and guest conversations, we'll uncover the eating challenges, celebrate the wins, and offer insights to help you thrive, not just survive in the corporate world. Because in today's global workforce, belonging isn't just a bonus, it's the catalyst for real growth and impact. Let's dive in. Or as always, before I bring Dr. Melissa in, I'm gonna do a little bit of intro of the term intersectionality. Thriving in intersectionality is a statement that has resonated with me since I had that as a title for my book, but also as the basis and the through line for this conversation. I love exploring the lead-layered experience of my guests and how they got to evolve to doing what they currently do. And I've honestly had a lot of fun getting to know a lot of people, leaders, change makers, uh, through this medium. But if you are not familiar with that word itself, intersectionality is a framework that recognizes our multiple aspects of identity, such as profession, gender, lived experience, culture, personal history, even leadership roles, among so many others. How all of these experiences that we've been through, all of these identities of who we are, how they overlap and interact and create very unique experiences that shape how we all navigate the world and how we lead. This framework uh is one that I came in through the work of Kimberly Crensher. If you type in, she's still busy doing the work. Um, you can find out a lot more about the work of Dr. Kimberly Crensher. You can also find out more. That's how I came in through the work, is through our work, and and so I I love to acknowledge that and to also point in that direction. And I I I host this conversation so that we get to meet new people doing amazing things through the um journey, through their professional journey and personal context. And so today we're gonna get to meet Dr. Melissa Doram. Hi, Dr. Melissa, how are you doing today? Hi, I'm good. Thanks for having me. Thank you for being here. All right, a little bit about Dr. Melissa. She is a high-stakes strategist operating at the absolute center of one of the most complex healthcare challenges in American history. At the USC Mann School of Pharmacy and Pharmaceutical Sciences, Dr. Melissa Dern serves as the Associate Dean of Organizational Success and Well-Being. Her work is defined by a rare dual lens perspective. As both a prescriber and a dispenser with almost 20 years of experience, she possesses the clinical and operational insight required to drive enterprise-wide transformation. Beyond her frontline expertise in chronic pain management, she's also a systems architect and recently led a pioneering institutional pivot from compliance-based DEI to a metrics-driven organizational success model rooted in values-based leadership. If you are not following her, you can already tell she's somebody you should be following, and you will find uh details on how to connect with her, a lot more about our work in the show notes. But I hope this conversation also guides you to a little bit of behind the scenes on why she does what she does and gets you a little more uh curious about what exactly she does. We're gonna touch on our work a little bit, but let's bring that into the conversation.

SPEAKER_00 5:10

Hi, Dr. Doran. How are you doing? I'm doing great. I am excited to talk about all the things. This is right at my alley. So thanks again for having me.

SPEAKER_01 5:20

It sounds like it, I know. Uh, when I was reading your bio, I was thinking about I was like, yes, this is exactly it. This is all of the things that make us who we are. You have a lot of um, you have a number of deep layers, and looking forward to dive into that. So let's start with my first question, which I always ask all my guests because of course it's thriving in intersectionality. When you think of that word intersectionality, beyond your bio, I love for my guests who are listening. A lot are listening on audio, maybe they're not seeing you, some people might be uh watching on video. But who is Dr. Melissa Dorham? What aspect of your identity have most shaped who you are today?

SPEAKER_00 6:04

So the first things that come to mind is I identify as a woman that has been a huge, it is a huge piece of my identity. It shapes how I move about in the world, how I see things, how I think about challenges. Um, and on top of that, I'm also a single mother. So um those two things have really had a huge impact on everything about me. And I also deeply identify with being a healthcare professional. So that's something that has been a major piece of my identity formation, um, and also shapes how I think, where my values lie, um, the type of compassionate care that I give to whomever I meet. And um, you know, I will note for those who are not, you know, able to visibly see me that I am a white woman and it's not lost on me the type of privilege that um comes with that as I move about in the world under this identity. So those are probably the biggest things. You know, I also grew up with um a household that was kind of lower middle class, very modest background, very limited means, um, and that has also made a really big impact on who I become today.

SPEAKER_01 7:21

Love it. Um, yeah, you're touching on a a couple of deep things, and I know that we could probably spend a long time talking about even each of those categories uh identity layers by itself. But do you do you what experiences, which of your experiences or maybe identity do you feel like um people most often miss when they see you or when they see the work that you're doing today the butt that has been very impactful?

SPEAKER_00 7:54

What do they most often miss? I think that when you meet someone, it's very easy to make assumptions based on their you know visible identities, right? I think that when someone meets me, they won't ever be able to assume or know how deeply rooted my work has been in anti-racism, for example. That's not an assumption someone would make when they first see me. I think that um no one would know about the struggles that I've had, um, both professionally, personally. Um, they wouldn't know what a dedicated mother I am. Um they wouldn't know how much I care about my patients and my students, and how my work has been incredibly human-centered for the last couple decades. So, those are some things that you know, someone who sees me in a white coat doing my clinical work or lecturing in the classroom, you wouldn't know those kinds of background things. And I mean, I think it's a really good lesson to ask that question because we never know what people are coming in with. We never know what people are showing up with and what everyone's carrying. So um it's important to try and put our assumptions aside as we encounter people throughout the world, right?

SPEAKER_01 9:25

Yep, yeah, I love it. And I yeah, and it's is it's easy to come into people's lives through some entry point where you think, you know, as you said, somebody might meet with you through the white code and just assume, oh my gosh, you know, she's doing amazing, she's doing amazing work. You don't necessarily know how you got there. So maybe that that kind of moves us to your your career journey, your your professional journey. You you wear so many hats, and of course, you are the connection, right? As a researcher, educator, um, healthcare, medical professional, there's so many, but could you walk us through your professional journey a little bit? I mean, um the the path you chose to take. I feel like it's it's not been the easy part when it comes to even like professional career choices. So I would love to hear a little bit of how you got here.

SPEAKER_00 10:18

Yeah, it's pretty unique. So um when I was younger, I was always good at math and science. So not everybody's good at math and science. So in my mind, I thought I had to do something with it because I could do it, right? Um, and also, like I mentioned before, I kind of grew up with limited means as a kid. So it was really important for me to choose a career path that provided some stability. Um, and I also knew that I wanted to have a family. So I thought that pharmacy was a really good fit because it was a health professional, um, you know, a health profession, and it provided me with some of that stability that I felt like I really needed. I mean, if I could have done anything I wanted, I probably would have been an actress or something, you know. But um, you know, we make decisions based on, you know, life things and practical things. So I chose pharmacy. Um, and I'm really glad I did. Healthcare has been something that has been amazing for me to be a part of. It's a social science, it's not just a science science, but healthcare itself is a social science. So that's given me space to really thrive in that aspect of it. Um, and I was lucky because I ended up in academia. So um I became a professor right out of residency. Um, I became faculty, I should say, right out of residency and had the ability to teach and do research and um, you know, be creative. Um, and so that academic space was really where I've thrived all along. And during that time, I completed my master's Master of Academic Medicine degree in addition to my doctor of pharmacy degree. So I have that on board as well. It's like a master in medical education. Um, and then right around 2015, 2016, about 10 years ago, I had a major burnout episode. I was in a role at our institution that um was very difficult, and I got caught in the middle of a toxic sort of reshuffling of administrative roles. Um and it was a really, really challenging, awful time for me. I ended up having to take a month off of work to focus on my mental health. Um, and when I returned, I kind of did was a bare minimum girl. I was like, I'm not gonna take anything extra on, I'm just gonna get by. And so I sort of benched myself from any kind of leadership position for a solid year or so. Um, but then in 2017, um, this is when diversity initiatives um started to really, you know, gain steam, at least at our institution, um, there was an opportunity to become an assistant dean of diversity, equity, and inclusion at our at our school. And I was one of the only ones who had had any sort of training in that space. I had learned how to teach cultural competence, as we called it then, um, in my Master of Academic Medicine program. I was teaching it in our curriculum. Um, and so I was kind of the only one there who could do it on some or any level. So I jumped and applied for that role. I got it. Um, that was in 2019. And um 2020 happened, and that was an interesting time, right? I was able to shepherd us through it um, through the pandemic, through the global uprising of black lives, um, and take a leadership role throughout that space to where I am today, where my title has been retooled to Associate Dean of Organizational Success and Well-Being. And um, from the very beginning, even when the title was just DEI, um, I took on um facilitating well-being initiatives at our program at our school as well, because coming through my burnout phase, that was something that was really important to me to address. And I've never viewed well-being and DEI as being separable. I've always viewed it as linked together, as kind of you have to have one, you know, you have to have both. You can't have one without the other. Um, so I led all of that um, you know, through all this challenging time and up until now. So it's kind of a it's kind of an interesting journey. It's a little bit different for a pharmacist who is an expert in pain management, right? That's where I am in my clinical practice. Um, but that's how I ended up to where I am today.

SPEAKER_01 14:44

Right. Very unique, very interesting. But also, what does that intersection look like for you right now? Like, are you still practicing and still teaching and still leading in academia?

SPEAKER_00 14:58

Yes, ma'am. So um most of us in these faculty roles have really interesting profiles where we teach, we have clinical practice, we do research, and we have service, and I have an administrative role. So I do all those things. I still see patients every single week. I manage um medications for patients with chronic pain. I still teach in the classroom, I still do my research, and I have um my leadership role within the school and then externally within the profession too. So a lot of intersections there and a lot of interesting places where different roles have informed one another in um unique and helpful ways.

SPEAKER_01 15:38

Yeah, very, very interesting and unique path to get there. But I also think that's where we are today is recognizing that none of this is really isolated. I mean, we we kind of we're treating it all as isolated when we're trying to like put pull the whole DEI into this separate part, but we can see it's easy to dismantle what you don't have it embedded in in your culture and in your system. So um you you've had front row seats to that. How do you think when when you think about what well, I guess do you want to share anything about what's going on now and how how much the growth within your institution has been impacted um around the world?

SPEAKER_00 16:22

So we're so where I'm at, we're a private institution, so it we're not as impacted as some of the public institutions um in red states or states with red legislature lectures, if I can say that word. Um but I'm in California at a private institution. Um, but we have been impacted. Um there's been a shift in, you know, not so much with us, but in general around what we can and can't do, what we can and can't say, the messaging around DEI. But for us, it hasn't been that hard of a transition or pivot because um I actually got out ahead of it in 2023. So I was noticing that the terminology, the acronym DEI itself was a barrier into getting done what we needed to get done. Um, you know, before it was getting banned, you know, nationally through executive order, um I was noticing that it was already carrying a lot of negative connectivity, uh, a lot of, you know, just negative weight and was getting in the way of us doing what we needed to do. So we actually retooled and rebranded um my title, my office to organizational success and well-being in 2023. And it actually worked out best because it brought it brought together the well-being and DEI initiatives under one umbrella because we've kind of had it as two separate buckets, two but two budgets, two types of things, but it brought it all together in one office, one space, and it really clarified what all this is really all about, right? It's not just about hitting certain numbers per se, but it's about contributing to the overall success of the organization. And I think anytime leaders can bring things back up to a higher level and return it back to like the why and what is it that we're doing here to begin with, um, then your message and your mission is going to be a lot more clear. So um that was something that we did three years ago. We we were ahead by far ahead of the game. Um, I sort of saw this coming. We don't have to get too much into politics right now, but um I I personally saw the writing on the wall when I knew Biden was running again running again and I knew we were gonna face some challenges down the road. And so we are really proactive with um pivoting early.

SPEAKER_01 18:53

Yeah, I mean, good good timing on that because yeah, I think, and I and I think that's why your insights will be helpful too, because it's almost like you've walked through the journey that a lot of people are just beginning to try to figure out right now. They're they're still trying to understand what is the current state, um, what is going on. Yes. Alright, so I'm gonna shift to bringing all of your expertise together now to to kind of speak to what a lot of you know, a lot of people listening to these um uh either early career professionals or maybe uh leaders in the DEI space or advocates in the DEI space. So I wanted to talk about that a little bit. Um having navigated some of these transitions and consolidation, maybe that's that's the word to use. Um I I do a lot of work with uh companies around employee resource groups, and uh sometimes that you know consulting is sort of the blend we are trying to navigate right now. Is it employee engagement? Is it learning and development? Is it EEI? What do we call ourselves now? And and this is this is the very much conversation that we're all having now, like, okay, forget about the name, let's talk about what you're trying to do, right? And and let's start from there. So maybe maybe that's my question is is really going to be trying to tap into your expertise a little bit to speak into this current reality and ask some uh pointed guide for leadership. Um, I know right now that the struggle is being balancing compassion with accountability, right? Stakeholders, employees, uh business goals, right? Uh, do you have some advice for leaders as they try to navigate uh that humanization aspect to actually doing the work and making sure that the business goals are still aligned?

SPEAKER_00 20:49

Well, I think that accountability is inherently compassionate if it's done right. So we have a so we have a saying in horseback riding. I'm not comparing anybody to like animals or anything like that, but but we have a saying that um you want to do firm and fair leadership. So and and it's true, it's true with you know my horse, it's true with my children, it's true in our organizations. Um, I think that people respond to leadership that's firm and fair, right? Um and if you approach accountability with um um clear expectations, with frequent communication, um, with two-way feedback, right? Um, then the accountability piece is inherent and can be compassionate. I mean, I also work, you know, so I work with students, I teach I teach students, we're in a healthcare profession that people have to learn their stuff in order to be able to graduate, to pass their board exams. And to go out and actually care for people. There's a patient at the end of this, at the end of the day. So we have to hold our students accountable for their knowledge, for their for their expertise, for their competency. So you know, so if some if it's not a right fit, if um we're not doing anybody any favors by allowing people through who aren't ready, by bringing people in who can't succeed, right? So that accountability actually is compassionate when it's built in in a way that has good communication, transparency, feedback, shared goals, right? But when you're missing any of those things, I think is where you really lose the compassion.

SPEAKER_01 22:51

Yeah. It is um right, it is constantly trying to separate it, and and maybe that's why your unique intersection and background really works. So when you think about organizations, because I think it's applicable regardless of industry, whether it's in academia, in corporate or whatever, what do you think organizations are still getting wrong about belonging, well-being, and then the business goal and the organizational health?

SPEAKER_00 23:19

I think that people are assuming what people need. Organizations are assuming the needs of people without actually really asking, right? Without actually doing the legwork, the assessments to find out what really meets the needs of their employees, of their stakeholders. I think that they think that they could just throw up some programming, right? Throw up some well-being programs, some resource groups, right, some trainings and think that that's gonna cut it, you know, that they've checked the box when that really might not meet anyone's needs at all, and you might not get any buy-in from it. So I think that the organizations that are actually really successful with some of these initiatives do things that already have buy-in from their stakeholders and even empower their stakeholders to take a leadership role in developing them. And then you provide people with the time and space and resources to help and to do it. That's what has been the most successful for us. And I know it doesn't necessarily work everywhere, but trying to assume what people want and need, you know, like for example, I'm I'm a single mom, I'm super busy, I'm not necessarily gonna be able to go to like all these events that I even put on at my program, but I might need a flexible work schedule, right? I might need some grace when it comes to um time and place and how I take meetings. So my needs aren't gonna be the same as a student who wants to, you know, be a part of a community, who really needs to be a part of community and go into like shared spaces and do fun things. Um, so that one size fits all in checkbox thing, I think, is really where people um fall into the trap of um not really meeting needs.

SPEAKER_01 25:10

Needs of people, yeah, absolutely. I love it. Um, another side of this conversation is something you already touched on a little bit, which is the programmatic approach, where you just do programs and events and and sort of check the box, like we did 10 events. We're good, right? We've met our goal for the year. Um, and a big part of the conversation I have with organizations is around systems and structures. We're not talking about something that you're gonna do one time and say you've done it, right? Um, do you have any advice, insights or leaders as we think about creating systems that support people without losing sight of the performance and outcomes?

SPEAKER_00 25:50

Yeah. Um my gosh, I have so much on this because that's all I've really been doing. I've been doing it without even really realizing it. And now I actually realize that's what I've been doing is creating systems um that are sustainable um and um and effective. Um so I think that well, well, first of all, what I have found is that offering things, what even whether or not people go, whether or not people engage with them, the offering actually still can be meaningful, right? And that's setting aside what I said earlier as far as like knowing, you know, what people need and and assess the needs of your stakeholders, right? But we've done things before where maybe we created, I don't know, like virtual yoga or um, you know, a mindfulness workshop or something like that, that it wasn't like super well attended or not really like well engaged with. But I think the messaging actually really mattered too. And that's not something that I've been able to measure, but my sense is that when you look at like the psychology behind marketing and messaging, that like the more that people see and hear that you're actually doing these things, it creates a sense that we care about it and it matters, right? So message first of all, messaging really matters, right? And then um creating systems that are sustainable. So you mentioned ERGs. So at um our school, um, we've we have like, I think 11 groups now, if I'm maybe I'm miscounting, but there's a combination of um sort of identity-based affinity groups and um interest-based well-being groups. So we have like a running group and a sports group that we also have like our LGBTQ group and our our Black group, Black Pharmacy Society, and so on. So that runs the whole gamut. But what's been successful for me is actually empowering um student leaders um to take on a leadership role in those groups, and then um creating a sustainable system because every single year those leaders turn over, which I have 30, I have a new group of 30 leaders almost every single year turning over. So that system in place for pass down from one leader to another, the um systems for onboarding, for expectations, um, for you know, access to all of the marketing assets and all the things that we use. We really had to build that out with the help of, I mean, I haven't done this alone, I have an administrative assistant, but building out those sustainable processes has been really key because we've started things in before before in the past that have been awesome and then they just sort of like fizzled out over time. So thinking long-term and how it can sustain, I think is really important and empowering others to do it. And then I think that part of the mission of my office is actually to um foster leadership in others as well. So I'm giving an opportunity for my students to have a leadership position, put it on a CV, learn the process, because they can actually take this, you know, thing that they've created or thing that they've worked on and apply the principles of it once they get into the workforce too. Um, and again, it's not transferable across the board, but that's what's worked for us is really empowering others because then you automatically have buy-in. They're like, hey, tell them their friends, come, let's do this, right? You already have a captive audience, and then you're creating leadership for the future as well.

SPEAKER_01 29:37

Yeah, I like that. And and that's um a key part of successful groups too, is engaging people because uh I always tell leaders you don't want to start another thing that you're mandating people to do, you need them to be a part of it. Um, and another thing I liked about what you said is turning over the leadership frequently because I think that's another opportunity to also bring in different voices, get different perspectives. Um, because you know, people are all different, there's no monolith when it comes to even some of these groups, right? Uh, so how can we mix up the kind of things we're doing by bringing different minds into it? I love it. I um we are running out of time as usual, but hopefully, um if people I'm I'm still gonna ask you some questions, but I mean, just because we're talking about your work now, if people want to connect with you, who would your target audience be and where can they find you?

SPEAKER_00 30:36

Yeah, so um you can find me on LinkedIn. That's probably the easiest place to find me. Um, or my Instagram is the Pain Pharmacist. Um, my website is thepainpharmacist.com. And as we said, I wear many different hats. So um my target audience would be anyone looking for um consulting and chronic pain management or around organizational success and well-being, um, leadership in those areas. Those are kind of my two sort of big buckets of of expertise. The kind of the leadership space and building successful cultures and organizations, and then also, of course, in in the healthcare chronic pain space.

SPEAKER_01 31:19

Right. And I I would add one of your target audience too to be organizations that are trying to design something similar. Because I I think that's the part of the uniqueness of what you bring is this is what we've done. This is our walk through this journey, and how is what's working for us so well right now. So um, which is why I wanted to ask that specific question, like just for you to be able to speak to the people that you work with directly now. Um, I know you you have students as well.

SPEAKER_00 31:46

Yeah, absolutely. And I'd also add too that um for organiz for other leaders out there who are listening and you know, thinking about their organizations, I've learned this so much over the years, and I'm sure you have too, about um approaching these types of things with a cool head. I think that people get very worked up about around, you know, issues related to whatever you know they think DEI is or DEI was and feel like there's a certain like emergency kind of nature to a lot of it. But I think we're a lot more successful when we keep a cool head about these things and that we approach things based on our values, based on strategy, based in data, um, and based in wisdom, really, versus like being reactive, being you know, overly emotional about it. So being proactive, being strategic, being wise, um I think is really the best approach when we're when we're talking about leadership in this space.

SPEAKER_01 32:45

In this space. I love it. And I think that's the walk-in before running thing. You know, it might look like every organization is doing 20 things. You might need to just look at your data and start with one thing right now. You know, you know your people, your your data best and your organization best. So thank you.

SPEAKER_00 33:05

Absolutely. Start with the biggest pain point and then go from there.

unknown 33:09

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 33:12

That will work for you, yes. Um, all right. I wanted to bring it back together, uh, back it up bring it back around connecting with intersectionality. So when you think of, you know, just who you are, the experience you've had, the career path that you've had, how do you think your own intersections and your lived experience kind of shapes the work that you're doing today?

SPEAKER_00 33:35

Oh wow, so I think that so much of my work is rooted in motherhood and also my identity as the healthcare provider. So when I think about being a parent, um, my children are not going to thrive, they're not going to be able to learn, they're not going to be able to succeed unless they have a safe and welcoming and accepting space where they belong, right? My students are not going to be able to learn a single thing unless they also have a safe and welcoming space where they belong, where everyone's nervous systems can stay regulated, right? My patients will not take any of my recommendations whatsoever unless they trust me in a space where they feel safe and can come from a regulated space. So I think that all of those different aspects of my work all funnel into an overarching idea of leadership. That these are these are things that are non-negotiable, right? As a leader, you have to have trust from your stakeholders. And you really do have to take the time to create the spaces where people can thrive and succeed, or else, you know, like what are we doing here? No matter what your work is, um, from the smallest task to the biggest picture things. So I think that all of those things are for me, um, connect in a really meaningful way.

SPEAKER_01 35:16

Absolutely. And that's foundational. I mean, that's the theme that is emerging from all of the things you're doing because it feels different, but they're all connected, right? Um, and so thank you for sharing that. So, two part two-part question around advice. Uh, what advice will you give to leaders? Again, thinking of organizational leaders, uh, or even small business leaders who are trying to create healthier cultures while managing, you know, lots of pressures and priorities in ice stake environment.

SPEAKER_00 35:48

Yeah, um, I mean, I t I think I touched on the big one already, some of the big ones already, like pick your biggest pain point, you know, um really assess what the needs are, where you need to start, try and be try and be data-driven as much as you can. And I think um, you know, most organizations are familiar with the strategic planning process. I don't want to sound, you know, contrite or basic around that, but I actually do think there's a lot of value in that when it's done correctly and well with buy-in. You know, if everyone actually decides together on what your organizational values are and you revisit it every now and then, what your mission is, and then you actually work together with all your stakeholders to come up with some concrete goals and strategies to do your work with the values connected to that. Um, and then you don't just create a document and let it sit on the shelf forever, you actually live that out, you know, and implement concrete strategies. I think that that is the way that pretty much any organization can succeed. I know that's not what everybody does, um, but you know, being being data driven and um and strategic, I think is really helpful. At least that's what's worked for us. Um, you know, we do we did we did climate assessments in in 2020 and we identified a few very big pain points that we were able to address. And it almost just kind of getting those couple things out of the way cleared the way for so much more. Um and and and so I think that that's some pretty good advice for organizations. Um I also think that maintaining the why, which goes back to the values and mission, you know, keeping the big picture in mind, because you know, work is work, right? Like we get caught up in all the daily, mundane tasks that maybe aren't so fun. But if we can, as leaders, bring it back to why we're here, you know. I I oftentimes with my students have to remind them like, hey, you're learning this because there's going to be a patient at the end of it, we're doing this because it's for like the good of humanity and healthcare as a whole, or whatever that message is for your individual organization. I think that that can help people stay on board with the shared goals as long as you stick with the why. Um and not to delay my answer too much, but I um for me, it's one of the reasons why I absolutely have to get out into nature periodically. I always have to do something that makes me feel small. You know, I have to look up at the moon, I have to see the giant sequoias, I have to put my feet in the ocean because it reminds me that all these little things aren't that important, that there's bigger, there's a bigger picture out there. And I think that message can really help leaders and the stakeholders and employees and students and whoever they are as well. Um so that would be my advice.

SPEAKER_01 38:44

I love that. I haven't thought about nature, being in nature being a way to I love being in nature just because I like to quiet my thoughts and just enjoy the natural sounds and feel like I'm all alone everywhere. But I I think the the what you just described about nature and feeling small and all of that. I I feel about that when I go on airplanes. I feel like when I'm flying, I always just look down and and think about just how much of a tiny speck I am.

SPEAKER_00 39:14

Yeah, and that that that annoying email you got isn't seem such a like such a big deal anymore when you look at it.

SPEAKER_01 39:20

Yep, yeah, I love it. All right, just because you're also in the world of students and and you've had an interesting career as well. I wanted to also ask for your insights and advice. Um, for a lot of professionals, young professionals, is things are changing pretty fast these days. And you know, we we have all of the questions around what career should I choose, what what career uh path is most lucrative or thriving. And I I just wanted to ask for anyone that sort of can see themselves in you, and maybe you know, the intersections you described earlier, woman, single mom, whatever that that intersection looks like, and and they're thinking about career. What advice would you give um individuals right now who are navigating their professional career and maybe they are early on? Or should they be doing more of or maybe less of?

SPEAKER_00 40:15

Oh boy, well, I think it it is an interesting time to be a young person. I think this is a huge concern for my students, actually. That for the number one thing that we're always asked is am I gonna get a job? Or you know, what's the job market like? Right? There's a and so many students are taking on like mountains of student debt, and that's a huge conversation right now. You know, they're limiting the amount of student loan, federal student loans students can take, and so on. And I think that I'll tell you what I tell my daughters is do something useful, do something that is needed, right? Um, and you can always connect it to a passion if you're lucky, right? Um, one of my daughters is an incredible artist. There's a there's a need for her talent and her skill in the world, despite everything that's happening with AI. There's a need for her creativity, for her humanity, and there will be a place that finds use in that. But she just has to figure that out, right? So as long as you're finding a way to leverage your strengths and talents in a way that is useful, I think that's probably pretty good advice. That's probably how I ended up as a pharmacist. I know I'm I know that I am going to be useful forever. You know, like being an accountant or a mechanic or whatever, a vocation, right? Like, um, so that's probably the the simplest, easiest advice that I would give to young people is make use of your of your talents and your passions and your strengths.

SPEAKER_01 41:53

I love it. Do something useful. I I think I've not heard it phrased like that, but that sounds about right. I'll probably use one of that as well because I think it's definitely an interesting time to, you know, with technology, with AI. It's not the outlook, career outlook textbook that we used to look at at years ago to tell you do this, take this degree so that you will do this job five years from now. Thank you for putting it uh so clearly that way. All right, I have my final question, uh, which is around food. I love to wrap up with this question. If you were to share a meal or a snack or something edible with your co-workers, what would you peek and why?

SPEAKER_00 42:38

I love this question. It would be my mother's chocolate chip cookies. So um, chocolate chip cookies are very American, um, just like I am and just like my family is. So we're kind of um I I always envy people who have deeply who have like these deeply rooted cultural foods and music. And and I kind of, you know, we sort of like lose what our American culture is um along the way, but chocolate chip cookies for sure. My mother um uses the basic toll house chocolate chip recipe. So it's kind of an old school 1950s, 1960s basic recipe, very affordable, right? Um, accessible to most income levels. And then she has modified it throughout the decades to make it her own. And I think it's just a neat reflection of um my culture, my family, um, and how we have sort of made beautiful things out of the very basic and simple American life. Um, and we've we've turned it into our own um delicious thing and our and our own thing to share. So whenever she makes them, everybody like flocks to her. It's a huge thing with our family and even like guests, hands down, um, everyone says it's the most amazing thing they've ever eaten. And so I think it's a neat little reflection of my family.

SPEAKER_01 44:07

I love it, and I think that's really the most important part is what does it mean to you? Because what you just described, I'm like, now I want a chocolate chip cookie. I'm not usually a sweet person, uh, and I love the way you describe the meaning. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you for chatting with me. Thank you for the work you do in the world today. Uh, much needed.

SPEAKER_00 44:30

Yeah, thank you so much for the uh thoughtful conversation. I loved it, I enjoyed it very much. Appreciate you.

SPEAKER_01 44:37

All right, well, if you're listening, uh, make sure you send us feedback. There's a way to send us a message and buzzprout about this episode. What was your biggest takeaway? And watch out for the link to Substack as well, where I always go deeper into what this conversation reveals for me uh with Dr. Alyssa Durham. So thank you everyone for listening. Thank you for being part of today's conversation on thriving in intersectionality. If you're an HR or DEI leader and you need employer resource group or business resource group resources, let's connect and LinkedIn and help organizations build inclusive cultures through inclusive workplace communities, strategy, and storytelling. Immigrants and first-gen professionals, join our free community at www.immigrantsincorporate.org for career support, networking, and resources in community with peers who understand your journey. Tag our podcast page on LinkedIn or connect with me directly to continue the conversation. Please don't forget to rate and review to help others discover these discussions. Keep thriving in your intersections. Your story matters. I'm Dr. Lola Adeyo, and this has been Thriving in Intersectionality Podcast.